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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 19 2013, 01:07 PM (1,109 Views) | |
| Rob | Jan 19 2013, 01:07 PM Post #1 |
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Hey All, A new guy Rob here, been reading with interest, humor and head shaking for the last few years. Lot's of good information and sharing, haven't had any thing to add to the mix or to "muddy the waters" so have been keeping quite. Will be posting a question soon so I figured I would make the introduction. As you can tell my name is Rob, and I am a groomer, operating a mixture of snowmobiles and PB100's on what we believe is the largest Nordic Ski Area in North America. We groom over 200K of trails, and we also like to believe we have some of the best conditions and corduroy out there. It can all be debated, and I'll trade a few spars but that's not what I want to do here. I'm not much for one to write my thoughts, you want to hang out in the debate something face to face, bring it on.. but on the "net" not so much. Anyways, looking forward to sharing and continuing the learning.. Remember my advice is worth what you pay for it, use with caution and with your eyes open.. Cheers Rob |
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| pixie | Jan 19 2013, 10:26 PM Post #2 |
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Welcome to the forum, Rob. Sounds like a lot of territory to cover. |
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| couchsachraga | Jan 20 2013, 08:27 PM Post #3 |
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Glad to have you with us- that is a lot of ground to cover, especially on a daily basis. It seems Sun Valley, Tahoe Donner, and Gunflint all claim 200km plus these days (makes Garnet Hill look pretty small at 55km +... at least that I could ski in a day (and did a few times for fun). I'm assuming you are at one of the first two, or somewhere else? I'm surprised you only have one cat for that many km - or do you have multiple PB100's? |
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| Rob | Jan 20 2013, 09:46 PM Post #4 |
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We currently have four PB100's, we use to run with a mix of five cats 160's and 100's. Down to 4 100's and if we can keep them running they can cover everything in one shift. We are on the East slope of the North Cascades of Washington, a little town called Winthrop, working for Methow Valley Sports Trails Assoc. The local Alpine area is it's own gig and a great hill with a Poma and one chair. We are a primarly a nordic area in the winter with a few snowshoe trails, and opening a little up to fat bikes. Summer finds us with bikers, hikers, runners and horses. Cheers rob |
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| couchsachraga | Jan 20 2013, 10:38 PM Post #5 |
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How do you like the 100 vs 160? I operated a 160 for a few years part time, but haven't had the opportunity to hop in a PB100 yet, unfortunately (center went to a BR180mp plus for a few years... we preferred the PB...). I've seen images of your center - my sister has skied there. Nothing but great things to say about the grooming! And she's skied all over the place (JO's for a few years). |
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| Rob | Jan 21 2013, 02:19 PM Post #6 |
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Thanks for the comments on our area. As a local I take some pride in our trail system. 160vs.100. I love the 100, the 160 is a great machine, but the 100 is so much better. I am a large man and sitting in the 160 I felt cramped my left leg was often turning the wipers, highbeams, turn signals, on. The 100 is much more roomier, quiter!! and the power is great. What we use to track up we can till and blade up if we watch our tempatures, the newer 100's have a much nicer tiller with better down pressure control, etc. I'd have a really hard time driving a 160 again and not feel like I was in truley inferior machine. Yet for years I drove both, ear pro in the 160, stero in the 100. Sorry to see our last 160 go but the 100 shines, no more ear pro in the cat, lot's of power, and comfort. We used 5 160's to do our entire system, we still do the entire system but now use 4 100's. Cheers Rob |
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| PB260 | Jan 21 2013, 07:30 PM Post #7 |
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G’day Rob, I skied your trail system very briefly many years ago and enjoyed it. Winthrop seemed like a nice town also and I was sorry that I didn’t have more time there. I see that you have at least one new PB100 and I wonder if you have the proportional control and the joystick incorporating the tiller controls? Do you still have any of the 100’s with the electronic blade control and if so how would you describe the difference? Did you consider a 5 axle machine when purchasing the latest 100? You stated that "the newer 100's have a much nicer tiller with better down pressure control, etc." I know that the tiller shaft has changed – are there other improvements to the tillers Rob? Look forward to hearing more. Happy Trails! |
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| Rob | Jan 28 2013, 02:07 PM Post #8 |
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Good day PB160 sorry the responce took so long, days off ended and back to the grind, with a weekend long event to boot. I don't get to make those decisions on Cats, 4 vs 5 axle, I was a little shocked when I heard we had sold two cats to replace it with a new one, ( we tend to buy demo machine year or two old) I wasn't on the job at that time but on a family adventrue. I'd be curious to drive a 5 axle cat to see if it would smooth out the ride/trail any. The newer 100's are alittle longer than the old and it seems to help with the "jumpiness". No tiller controls on the joy stick, not sure we want them there as the joystick is a couple grand to replace as is. And we wear them out, or they just don't make'm' like they use too. The newer 100's seem slower on the joystick and we occasionally get burned by the slower responce time that then requires a little back blade and cleaning up on the trail. Over all the newer cat is nicer than the old, as with everything new it has glitches that we are learning to work with. Tiller has a little bit different design, wider wings on the comb, but when compared to the older 100's the newer ones seem to have more consitent pressure when adding a track pan to the mix, better tracking, and the depth of cut gauge is great when talking with new operators and trying to get them dialed in. Cheers Rob |
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| PB260 | Feb 6 2013, 01:32 AM Post #9 |
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G’day Rob, I hope that you have some good snow to work with now and some great skiing. I take it you sold two 160’s to buy the latest 100 which appears to be brand new. Is it much different from your older 100’s and your ex “Vancouver” machine? I’ve seen the photos of it from when it arrived. It seems to have 2.8m tracks and tiller and a 3.1m blade. Is that right? I feel that the “jumpiness” that you refer to is unlikely to be rectified by the five axle 100’s as I’ve experienced it with full size 5 axle machines as well as the PB100. The 170, 200 and 270 will all do it anyway. If your new 100 is smoother than the older machines I’d really like to know about it though as I want a smoother ride. It seems to have a larger gap between the 2nd and 3rd idlers. How many extra cleats are there in the track on the new machine? Is the frame stretched or have they extended the track at either front or rear? “Jumpiness” or tiller bounce is relatively common in Australian snow and Californian snow and I’ve seen it in Idaho although it didn’t happen to me. I think I have photos in my Idaho album. It happened to a vastly under powered machine (a 170 running a 4.2m tiller) with the wrong tiller shafts and I suspect that it may have been exacerbated by too great a depth of cut and the torque reaction caused by the tiller teeth attempting to drive into the pack without sufficient power behind them. I haven’t experienced it in situations where the snow quality is high. It seems to occur most in heavy snow that quickly turns into ice although I have heard of it happening in Utah. Our snow is legendary for rapid breakdown and I imagine that yours is sometimes similar. I believe that the “jumpiness/tiller bounce” that I experience happens because the track cleats don’t easily penetrate the hard pack/ice and the idlers ride roughly over the cleats/tyre guides putting a shudder or a bounce through the groomer. This is then complicated by the slight up and down movement of the stinger attempting to maintain down pressure and failing due to the slight time lag which creates an ongoing cycle of small variations in height. These small variations in the position of the stinger then allow the tiller to rotate slightly at the pivot behind the headstock effectively changing the depth of cut repeatedly. The result of this is a washboard finish that isn’t much fun to ski on. I find that maximum tiller down pressure along with operating the blade heeled back with some down pressure helps somewhat. Slower travel speed also helps greatly, as does shallow depth of cut on the tiller. I would also like a more Alpine style tiller shaft with a fine cut as I know from operating 270’s with coarse and fine cut shafts that the finer cut is vastly superior. I’d be keen to hear about anything that you do to control it Rob? Do you find that your front renovators make a difference? I have a PB snow cutter behind the blade and while it is a fantastic help in some conditions, whenever I really need it, it is unusable. This is because the 3.1m tracks of the 100 cannot get enough grip to drive the fully extended snow cutter through the icy pack. I can only use it to scratch the surface. I take it from what you say that you have the standard ball style blade joystick on the new one. I have been led to believe that all PB100’s now have the pilot pressure proportional control (regardless of which style of joystick is fitted) instead of the electric over hydraulic (solenoid) control that early machines had. I also understand that this came about because of the high cost of replacing the solenoid control (and customer dissatisfaction) compared to the pilot pressure proportional control which should last the lifetime of the machine. Perhaps a few micro switches would still need to be replaced but that is simple and inexpensive compared to the complete solenoid control every thousand hours or so. The original control in our 100 was about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike when it came to precise blade control. Subsequent controls have been the proportional electronic model and they offer more precision although they still wear out far too rapidly. (I can’t understand why a working tool is made out of plastic?) The adjustment in the control (via the set screws) seems almost non-existent and I found that by adding an armrest from a cars centre console it helped enormously with precision control for blading. I also got one of our mechanics to add some of the tiller controls to the joystick which helped reduce operator fatigue and I’d recommend it to everyone. I also like the slower action of the later model solenoid controls as I think they allow me to perform finer detail and I get into less trouble than I used to with the original. Maybe I’m just getting used to it. I’m going to add a couple of photos of the ball style control and the large, console mounted PB armrest. Is this what your new machine has? What about the “Vancouver” machine? Is it the same? I’m also going to try to add a photo of the new joystick incorporating tiller functions. A couple of seasons in a BR 350 with a similar joystick sold me on the idea. Happy Trails Rob I've got a bushfire to put out!
Edited by PB260, Feb 6 2013, 01:39 AM.
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| Rob | Feb 19 2013, 10:00 PM Post #10 |
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Hey PB260, wow you know your cats. sorry I haven't been here in a while, between grooming, trails and everything else in life something had to give. I 'll try and hit all your questions. We sold our oldest PB 100 and a 160 for the newest 100. Bringing our fleet down to 4. now our oldest is from 2004, we had to replace the final drive on it today, yikes it was a pricy part, not surprising, but not cheap, pound for pound though it was a great deal chepaer than the joy stick on our "vancouver" machine. I'll have to look at the spec's on the newest machine, but the joystick is like the one you picture, three buttons, Vancouver machine is the same. The compalaint on the newer machines with the newest being the slowest, is blade control being slow and sloppy, we are all use to the bump of the older style and getting precise movement by the little tap or bump. The newest machine is 9 inches longer, tracks seem longer, more and different grousers and what seems to be a smoother power transfer. Our vancouver Machine tends to run hot, and when you hit 206 degrees the secondarey fan kicking on gives the cat a little shake. the newest cat doesn't shake and our temps rarely get that high, even running it onthe same terrian and conditions. the older 100's the fan doesn't kick until 215 or so. Renovators are our secret, we've been using them for the last month or so as our snowpack has dwindled and no new snow has fallen. We have tweaked some older 160 renovators for the 100's and they work ok can't dig as deep as we'd like. the newer renovators are beasts' and will dig to earth if you let them. Very curious about the snow cutters as we hate giving up the blades, nothing bettter for fixing washboards, carrying snow out onto the sunny spots etc. Can you not adjust the dept of cut? Chatter/washboards... sounds like you have a great grasp on the isssues and causes. Ours is sometimes started by our snowmobiles, or new groomers and then we spend our time cutting it out with our renovators at an angle and out of float. I'll also back off on the down pressure at times to help reduce it. As we say there is no one answer, but lot's of solutions you just have to find the one to fit that section of trail at that time. Depth of cut/ pressure/ speed, pressure on the front, float or no float on the blade/ renovators/ tiller speed/ praying to the snow gods/ We all creat chatter, some more than other, and not all of us know how to get rid of it. It's like the old joke of whats the difference from a carpenter and a framer.... a carpenter knows how to fix his mistakes. Thats the difference with our operators, some cn fix things others can't. Not sure if I'd like tiller controls on the stick would have to play with that idea. The newest Cat has all the controls on the divider, not on the flats behind the joystick. Not sure I like them there as it's a different movement and I get my hands on the wrong set at an alarming rate. the arm rest on our two newest cats are nice though, I think the nesest cat has brouhgt the joy stick back closer to the shoulders thus the buttons up on the side. Over all very happy with the new cat, as with any new machine we have issue, but they are getting worked out. the coolest feature is the depth of cut gauge, much easier to know whats going on behind you, and to replicate when you hit the wrong button. Hope you got the brush fire out... we'll be worried about that when you are tilling snow in a few months. thank for you thoughts and sharing Cheers Rob |
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| PB260 | Feb 22 2013, 07:22 PM Post #11 |
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It’s as you say Rob, all machines have their problems and often the first production of a new model is where you find more of them. Later production has the updates and the refinements that make machines truly useful. From what I’ve heard final drives were the Achilles Heel of the early 100’s, much like water pumps were an early problem for 160’s. For me Rob the big failure of the 100 was having a fantastic blade which is a precisely scaled down version of those fitted to the big groomers without the brilliant and functional control that is fitted to all the “real” groomers. We had some overheating problems after 2000hrs and weeping from the head gasket. Normal temps were 85° C (185F) and a little higher when working hard. Temps got to 95° C (203F) when the weeping occurred and it was babied through to the end of the winter. Over summer it was stripped and the head recoed before being reassembled with a new gasket. Since then it’s done plenty of work without missing a beat. The snow cutter is a fantastic device in many situations but it has its limitations. I’ve used front renovators and found them to be great tools, once again, with limitations. On small cats I think a track mill may be more important in some conditions although I haven’t used one. I sometimes use the side of the snow cutter with the blade angled and tilted a little in order to renovate just the track and I have the tiller set to just clean up the skate lane. Actually I first learned to do this with an 8 way blade when it was not possible to renovate the whole trail width with the blade and also set a good track. By concentrating only on renovating the track a good compromise was achieved. The snow cutter swings down hydraulically through an arc from under the blade frame to a position just behind the blade. It is designed to be operated at full stroke but it can be used when it is almost fully closed to merely scratch the surface and to provide a little crumble for the tiller. In good snow you hardly need the tiller as the comb is enough to put finish on the crumble. In very icy conditions the amount of force required to drive the blade of the snow cutter is not available from the 3.1m tracks as they just slip and it can become a multi pass operation scratching at the surface to set reasonable track. The angle of attack is also altered by adjusting the pitch of the blade as the plane of the cutter is perpendicular to the back of the blade when it’s in the fully engaged position. I’ve done some experimenting with settings and angles and unfortunately when it is solid ice nothing works except weight and horsepower and we don’t have enough of either. Rob what size are your 100’s? The Vancouver machine appears to have a 2.8 m tiller and 2.8m tracks but a 3.1m blade. I like the idea of having a wider blade but I can’t get any wider than 3.1m. I’m going to try to add a photo of the new style joystick which you’ll see is raised and I guessed that that was to create clearance for hydraulic components under the tunnel. I had some fire pop up out of the ground yesterday so I've got to go and check that we got it all out now. Happy trails! Edited by PB260, Feb 24 2013, 11:28 PM.
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I've got a bushfire to put out!
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10:26 AM Jul 11