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| Grooming alpine piste in marginal conditions; Our club just got its first grooming machine - all advice appreciated | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 25 2012, 06:10 PM (1,084 Views) | |
| madsdyd | Dec 25 2012, 06:10 PM Post #1 |
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Operator
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Hi there Our club in Denmark has just gotten its first grooming machine, for our - admittedly - small hill in rather snow-deprived Denmark. We don't get a lot of snow here - but when we do, we would like to use it / prepare it, in the best possibly way. Are there any good guides on grooming in marginal conditions? I bought and read this book: http://www.slf.ch/ueber/organisation/schnee_permafrost/projekte/Handbuch_Pistenpraeparation/index_EN - but its practical section is rather skimpy, and is clearly aimed at sites with modest to heavy snowfall, not (very) light to modest. What we typically see during end of December, January and February is a snow cover that only lasts "naturally" for a couple of weeks, and typically no more than 15 cm. We do have snow cannons, and can usually run them for a couple of days, but not always. We would like to increase the covers "lifelength" so to speak (I guess we need to increase the density). We are open on a day-to-day basis, mostly Thursday to Sunday. I guess there is no way around us experimenting somewhat, but we would like to avoid the most glaring mistakes for "marginal" conditions. We have arranged for 5 persons to be able to "ride along" when grooming at a site in Austria that does get "real snow", but this is in week 3, where they have a lot of snow. Obviously we are going to learn a lot, but perhaps not what we need most: grooming in marginal conditions. Any advice much appreciated! Thanks in advance Mads
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-- Snowmaking and grooming in extreme marginal conditions: Thats us! Youtube videos | |
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| couchsachraga | Dec 25 2012, 09:06 PM Post #2 |
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Advanced Operator
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Do your best to wait until you have enough base to use your Pisten Bully - otherwise you will be bringing up dirt and such and dramatically decreasing the life of your snowpack. Also be careful not to go too deep with the blade or tiller for the same reason until you have a good base. Grooming in low snow condition is an art all its own. |
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| FtheGroomer | Dec 27 2012, 10:07 PM Post #3 |
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Finally got heavy snow. 18-21" and some trails up to 48" with drifts. Rode on the sled for 7 hours compressing snow. G2 tomorrow to level and set trak. |
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| madsdyd | Dec 29 2012, 10:33 AM Post #4 |
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Thanks. What about running without the blade and tiller - just using the tracks and finisher to compress the snow (to prevent e.g. drift)? Would that be a good approach, or just wasted time/counterproductive? Regards Mads |
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-- Snowmaking and grooming in extreme marginal conditions: Thats us! Youtube videos | |
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| couchsachraga | Dec 29 2012, 10:55 AM Post #5 |
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If you have just a packer bar use that, or run with the tiller most of the way up (little cut) assuming you have enough snow for it to still fill the box up. You may want to build a roller to drag around. The big challenge may still be having enough snow / base on the ground such that the grousers don't punch through and bring up dirt. |
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| sno-cat | Dec 29 2012, 12:07 PM Post #6 |
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sno-cat
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If you have a snowmobile I would go out and pack a trail and let it freeze overnight. Then in the morning drive the 200 on the trail you packed with the snowmobile earlier and see if it pulls up dirt go and parkit, if not see if it will pull up dirt in the unpacked areas if it does pull up dirt put the 200 away and pack the hill with the snowmobile after the hill is packed it will freeze overnight and then its time for the snowcat about the tiller and blade I wouldnt use the blade yet unless the hill is moguled, for the tiller I would put it on up presure with your depth of cut at 0 that should extend the top hydraulic cylinder on the rear tiller lift frame all the way out, shaft speed should be low just to break down chunks that won't pass under the comb Hope you get some more snow. Payton |
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| PB260 | Jan 3 2013, 09:27 AM Post #7 |
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G’day Mads, I think that you may be able to increase the amount of snow that you have to work with by snow farming and snow harvesting. If you get some wind with your snow storms (or after storms) you will have drifting occurring and you will be able to farm snow while the drifting is going on. Depending on wind direction, terrain shape and vegetation you may also get snow accumulation in close proximity to your ski hill that you can harvest with your cat and add to the hill. Be very careful not to dig up dirt or vegetation as this will darken the snow and lead to high snow loss. I have a few main ways of farming snow whenever drifting occurs. If you have areas where wind scours snow from your hill, building snow fences will be the best solution. I build snow fences when I can get the money but more often I use several makeshift fence types ranging from wooden pallets to industrial barrier fencing. Snow fencing next to ski slopes can be a danger to skiers so some of the following may be more approprate. I even have some places where trees and other vegetation form natural snow fences. Mostly I don’t have snow fences where I need them (my fairy godmother has forgotten me) so I have to use a Quad Bike or a snowmobile or when there is much more snow, a snow cat, to track the snow in order to catch drift in the ruts left by the machines. I start with the Quad Bike first as I can ride it on very little snow without bringing up dirt and vegetation. This is important as any discolouration of the snow will lead to high snow loss later when the sun heats up the darker snow. Ride the Quad or snomo perpendicular to the prevailing wind creating ruts in the snow which will then fill with drifting snow. I sometimes find that by the time I’ve tracked all the areas where drifting occurs its time to go back and start again. If you get wind direction changes as the storm progresses you may need to re track perpendicular to the new wind direction to get the most benefit. By using the light machines you will achieve some snow compaction as you farm snow with the ruts you’re building and eventually you will get to the point where you can use your cat to track the snow and the rough track marks you leave will also catch snow. If you’re lucky enough to get plenty of snow you’ll be able to use the corner of the blade to gently create a shallow rut and a snow bank as you go and catch even more. A series of these a metre or two apart all over your hill can catch a lot of snow in a storm. If at some point you have snow drifts and/or banks adjacent to your hill you can harvest those and add to the snow pack on the hill. Just remember not to dig up any dirt or vegetation when you’re doing this. Any area where snow drifts occur they will continue to grow until they reach a point of smooth evenness out in the open and then they will stop growing. If you can cut a drift close to its source repeatedly it will keep growing as long as the wind keeps blowing. There is a point closer to the fence or obstruction that is causing the drift where it will be deepest and you will get the maximum amount of snow if you keep cutting the drift at this point. In a few places I have drifts forming at the rate of a metre or more per hour even with no snow fall. I hope this is of some help to you Mads. Good luck for the winter!
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| madsdyd | Jan 3 2013, 09:52 AM Post #8 |
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Thanks a bunch for the replies! Controlling drifts in snowstorms is surely something we have to try. Thanks a bunch. Mads |
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-- Snowmaking and grooming in extreme marginal conditions: Thats us! Youtube videos | |
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| PB260 | Jan 3 2013, 09:18 PM Post #9 |
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Hei Mads, Når har jeg vist på skibakken din forstør jeg beddre vanskeligheten. I did not realise that you are in Denmark until after I had sent my post on snow farming etc. Knowing where you are and how low your elevation is it will be very difficult for you. I used to work in Norway and the Danes who came to ski told me about how bad the snow could be. I believe that you will get wet snow and that sometimes there will be no drift because the snow will be too heavy. If this is correct you will not be able to farm much snow. We sometimes get wet snow here and at the end of the storm temperatures will drop and the snow will dry out and some drifting may occur but I don’t think you can count on a lot. How much snow making capacity do you have? We do not have good snowmaking conditions here in Australia but I have been able to make a lot of snow in a short time when conditions are right. The key is cold nights with clear skies and low humidity. When we have dry air we can make snow up to plus 4 degrees. Is the PB200 that you have a new machine or is it the old one from thirty years ago? It may create problems for you if you operate it on too little snow. If the tracks dig up dirt and vegetation it may be worse than if you didn’t have the groomer at all. Do you have the Alpine Flex Tiller or the 2000 series tiller? It will be stamped on the compliance plate on the headstock of the tiller near where the groomer attaches. Do you have a Compactor Bar? If you do, it may be better to start out using it as the groomer will be much lighter and less likely to dig up dirt. I often cannot go out on new snow as it is too wet and the groomers will go right through it. I sometimes have to wait for an overnight freeze before I can go out and pack with a snowmobile. After I have some snow packed and it has frozen I can run a cat on a very thin layer but I have to be very careful not to dig up the whole frozen layer in one go. When we get good snow I harvest snow from car parks to make toboggan slopes and to fill a ski tunnel under a highway. If you cannot push car park snow directly onto your ski hill you can make it into a pile and shift it with a front end loader. Many times I have trucked snow to help ensure an event happens. The key to all of this is to try to keep the snow as clean as possible. Lykke till med tråkking og har en hygellig kaldt vinter!
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| madsdyd | Jan 26 2013, 03:05 PM Post #10 |
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Hi again. Sorry for the delay, I have been wanting to answer and thank you for the last three weeks, but things have been awfull busy. Some of it good though; I have been riding along in a grooming machine in Austria for a couple of days, and have been "studying" snow making machines there too. First: Thanks a bunch for all your helpfull suggestions! Second, to answer your questions: - Yes, we do get wet snow, however, the "heavy" snowfalls we get are often accompined by strong winds, and are often a result of low pressure systems from west/southwest, meeting high pressure systems from north/northest. The northen winds are dry, and we often do get a lot of drifts here when it snows. (Causing a lot of traffic problems, as Denmark always seems to be unprepared to deal with snow). (The drawback is that the weather often changes following snow, so we get a period of thaw.) So your suggestions about snow farming are very welcome. - We do have a "complete" snowmaking facility. We have 4 Areco snowcannons. However, they are quite old, probably 15-25 years or something like that. The newest one is capable of working in -3C/80% with a single ring, the others are less effective. We can almost never run all four at time, but often we can run two, sometimes 3. (We lack the pressure/water flow to run all four, except in very cold/dry conditions). We are however, not good enough to produce snow. This is an area where we have to improve. I personally believe we have to get rid of some of the oldest cannons, and obtain one (if not two) newer cannons. - The PB200 is old (approx 25 years). It has a tiller 2000, not a flex tiller. It does have a 12 way shield. (And alu chains). We do not have a compactor bar - this may be something we need to look into. Our hill is north facing, so we are not as influenced by sun as we could be. I understand you worries about dirt - I will return to that in the post you just made. Thanks again - and, by the way, all your suggestions are going into a "manual" for snow production and grooming that I am putting together now. (In Danish I am afraid, but at least you know your help is hugely appreciated!) Kind regards Mads |
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-- Snowmaking and grooming in extreme marginal conditions: Thats us! Youtube videos | |
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