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| our snow, your snow, whos snow? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 14 2010, 09:38 AM (1,378 Views) | |
| cowboy | Jan 16 2010, 11:37 PM Post #16 |
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During the grooming season, say Nov thru Mar, we really don't get anything that might be on the"wet" side of things. Normal stuff is light dry fluff, 90% of the time. Of course Wyoming's everpresent wind..Constant wind does stuff to snow that continues to boggle the mind. Add very low humidity, any moisture in the snow gets sucked out, leaving sugar with a crust over the top. Wind also gives us with rapidly changing temps, 20-30deg warm-ups in the middle of the night is pretty normal. Drop a track off in the sugar and it's like oiled marbles, no traction or floation, once opened, it'll set like concrete, or blows away... Rarely do we ever get snow that stays similair to how it fell, usually within hrs, the wind starts on it from a different direction than it fell, at near hurricane speeds(or more) and it morphs first into tractionless goo, given some time, ma' nature then makes white concrete from it. Chunks and slabs the size of couches and small cars. Good for Igloo's, til it morphs back to sugar. We try to groom bout 4 times a wk or so, depends. Weekends and say Tue/Thur. Rarely will the conditions let us leave it for any length of time. If ma' nature doesn't mess with it, the H.S. team(s) will. Get in storm cycle, throw in some events, might be out daily for weeks at a time. Normal grooming is for the "rec" skier. Generally try to keep the per trip grooming time down($$$) as much as possible, one pass. Try not to get REAL picky til we need to get picky. Events, holidays, etc. |
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| air19 | Jan 17 2010, 12:54 AM Post #17 |
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Cowboy, When you do need to get picky while grooming with a PB, does that mean multiple passes, or slower driving to do more operations that you could maybe handle at slower speeds? Just curious with the big machines. For grooming with drags behind snowmobiles, picky usually means multiple passes for our trails. |
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| icebox | Jan 17 2010, 11:08 AM Post #18 |
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Fussy, I groom with a 200 Edge, using a BR VG2 tiller with the latest long tooth shafts right now because I like their design, also have a 2000 tiller, and a multiflex. I like to think I am always fussy, but there are times I am a lot fusssier than others. Grooming with a modern big cat gives you so many options for adjusting your outcome, and what you want depends on the event. Trail density is usually what you are looking for, if you want to measure it the density for most races should be close to 4 grams per cc. Rec sking about 3- 3.5 and National events like a Supertour should be closer to .5 if possible. You do not want the surface too hard, like a snowmobile trail, you also do not want any berms or crowns to the surface of a free style race. Crowns create a sweet spot that make it difficult to pass, uphill corners should be sloped out, downhill corner can be sloped in, intersections all need to have smooth seamless transitions with a clearly defined inside radius so skiers don't chop inside to much, vee board is best. So for me event grooming does require multiple passes, attention to lots of detail, and a uninterupted final pass, somtimes followed by snowmobile for best line, with pre planned points to drop in a passing lane on long uphills. Thats as short as I can keep it, would rahter groom than type. |
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| air19 | Jan 17 2010, 12:39 PM Post #19 |
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THANKS Icebox. That's exactly what I was looking for. Arly I hope you don't mind if I'm possibly taking this thread on a new direction. It starting talking about everyone's different snow. Now I am interested in how everyone takes their snow to the very best conditions possible. Sometimes when I'm grooming with my VK and the G2 it's just a matter of survival, meaning I get through the day without creating messes, and hopefully add some value. But when the trail base gets really good and the new snow cooperates then I think about going to the next level and making the trail really good. I have always assumed that with the PBs that this set of groomers are able to work at that next "fussy" level most of the time. So I am very interested in hearing how you work your trail and snow to it's very best conditions like an important race. I'm hosting the US Ski-Orienteering Championship on our trails in mid February and I want to make them as good as possible. Not a big race, maybe 100 skate skiers at best, going every which way on our complex trail network. So this adds a different element to the setup because I don't have a defined race loop that everyone will be skiing on and traveling in a particular direction. |
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| icebox | Jan 17 2010, 02:01 PM Post #20 |
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Density, density density........ no matter what density, hardness you achieve, you want the density to be consistent. I would suggest a ladder drag of some kind to smooth out the umeven surfaces, also track pack witha narrow implement every square inc, you can check for consistency with a rod, it should be the same every where. you do NOT want some areas harder than others ideally, after that perfect cord is not really needed, in some cases a loose ball bearing texture that you can get an edge into skis much better, esp on downhills. Headed out for a rare ski today. So that all for now |
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| arly | Jan 17 2010, 02:08 PM Post #21 |
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Air, What folks do with there snow and its difference is exactly what I had hoped for. We all have different snow, expectations, traffic and equipment to deal with it. Hearing what others do is of GREAT value and one of the reasons I always enjoyed attending ABR's grooming clinic. The gathering of and listening to all these people who groom from all over the country is SO MUCH fun. |
| http://keweenawnordic.org/ [/url] keweenawnordicskiclub.blogspot.com [/url] | |
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| cowboy | Jan 17 2010, 06:20 PM Post #22 |
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Icebox nailed it. There's a big difference between say a weekday when the weather sucks and a high-end race. I'm always looking to leave a good product, never half-ass anything, but cats are expensive to run, minutes add up to hours, hours to real money. Weekends are 10 times what weekdays are. I still try to do everything in one pass. Use the week to prep for the weekend. So sat mornings pass gives me the best product, with as little effort/time/expense as possible. Sun is just a reset of sat. Races are a different animal altogether. Outside of a full lodge for the day. We eat the grooming cost of races, and most other events. Prep work done in the weeks prior, even in the summer, show's up. I get in big pissing matches with our coaches over the ho hum, disorganized mess that typically ensues before a race. I want as good as product that I can get. Having a course change 10 hrs before start isn't helpful. Race courses are as close to perfect as I can get them. Every detail. I can save lots of cat time by preping the course over the week(s) prior. Still involves mutipule passes, and lots of blade work, but nothing compared to starting from scratch. Start hosting the higher end stuff, and the tech director that comes with it, having your ducks in a row is quite helpful. Rec grooming is about the little old lady and the first timer. Trails they can get ahold of, not bulletproof hardpack or ice. Corner's tipped to keep the skaters off the classic track, nice straight tracks away from the edge. Just the little things that keep everybody safe. Focusing on the high traffic and beginner trails, keeping them in good shape..especially weekends. Generally I save big blade cuts/pushes/trail re-builds for the weekdays. I can dump a windrow over, and lose a bit of trail til the next pass/day/trip without worrying about losing 3-6ft of trail. Leaving world class trails everyday isn't cost effective, It'd be nice, but not realistic. That's what I was meaning by 'picky'. |
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| BikerBill | Jan 17 2010, 07:37 PM Post #23 |
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arly, you mentioned the ABR grooming seminar coming up this week. I totally agree with you, meeting and swapping grooming info and also being able to drive the different machines. I drove a track drive atv at the seminar last year, was really impressed! Unfourtutally, last year there was no snowmobil reps there. ABR has a former Skidoo shop guy working for them, he reviews the set ups and trys to answer questions about the different sleds that ABR has. Pete Moline, owner of Afterglow yeararound resort, Eagle River, Wis. area, who grooms his trail system, is usually there. He helps Tidd Tech design there equipment. Several years ago I meet Doug Edgerton, YTS owner and Olympic groomer. I have called both these guys several times for advice. Maybe you could do some recruiting for the GROOMING TALK blog, more is better. I'm sure you know Pete, mention it to him. One question that always comes up at the seminar is "Why do skating trails have more work done on them then classic, even though there are more classic skiers then skaters?" or " When there are combined skate and classic, the classic trail is on the edge, poor pole plant on outside edge plus usually the classic trail corners are sharper, you can't cut the corners from outside to inside to outside". Last year we had a big disaggreement among us. This past weekend I skied a trail that has skate and classic together, use a big Ginsu with track setter and pack skating and set track together in one pass. I introduce myself to the groomer and we talked grooming stuff and he mentioned that a problem he has that he gets squillies in classic trail when he does this because tracker is mounted solidly to Ginsu. I skated that day and I noticed this in classic, plus classic is set next to edge which was often snow banks, etc. When he can, he sets classic with a 4' G2, which he likes. Problem he has is the Lake Superior snow making machine, they can get lots of snow. Will be waiting for a full report on the seminar. |
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| air19 | Jan 17 2010, 09:21 PM Post #24 |
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Great stuff guys. I'm learning. Cowboy you made reference to one technique I don't understand "corner's tipped to keep the skaters off the classic track" THanks |
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| cowboy | Jan 17 2010, 11:35 PM Post #25 |
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Air19 Skaters are known for cutting the corner and wiping out the track if on the inside edge. If you tip the trail away from the classic, to the outside, the glide of the outside ski will pull the skier away from the classic track. Maybe an 1" over say 10' depending on the hill or corner. Most will never notice it...Nice trick to save your tracks. |
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| arly | Jan 18 2010, 07:41 AM Post #26 |
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XC, Yes we've meet all the people you mentioned plus we've skied Pete Moline's Afterglow trails. Since our trails are striding only, I'd be upset to if my pole plants went into a void. Its up to us doing summer trail maintenance to keep those poling on the edge out of ditch's AND make sure that the base is stiff enough so that doesn't happen. Everyone here who does "combo trails", leaves the tracks on the edge. Please note we're not attending the clinic, but just the equipment vendor show. Will we see you up to ski with us this year??? Hope so!
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| http://keweenawnordic.org/ [/url] keweenawnordicskiclub.blogspot.com [/url] | |
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| Steve.M | Jan 18 2010, 09:46 AM Post #27 |
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I know for us, we groom skate lanes more often because they take a beating here more-so than our tracks. If we have good snow to set really great hard tracks, I don't like to mess with them-if I do, I usually can't get as deep, or crisp tracks again without new snow or multiple passes chopping. We may be an oddity here, but we do have more skaters than classic over the course of a week. I mentioned this before also, skate lanes get "iced up" by striders "shooshing" down the middle of the skate lane. Corduroy is gone and it's hard to get an edge after that. I'd think striders would have an easier time staying in the tracks....but some don't like them, or they want to ski side by side (we don't have room for two sets of tracks plus skate lane). When grooming, I like to set tracks on my second pass-first pass to groom the skate lane, second for tracks. It helps because I can usually do it without the Ginzu or G2 leaving a small berm close to the tracks. It's much smoother. I can also take some liberty in the location of the tracks- a little softer line in the corners and how far from the edge I set tracks. I want plenty of room for poling. I also change which side I put tracks down-that helps keep the sides of the trail firmer. We're in thaw/freeze now...for a week, I'm afraid, so the teeth will get plenty of work! |
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| semntrails | Jan 18 2010, 12:22 PM Post #28 |
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We're in the same boat, without new snow periodically it gets hard to reset decent classic tracks so we'll leave them alone as long as possible and just smooth out the skate lane. With our current conditions - hard packed old snow. If time allows and I'm going to redo everything, I'll take our leveling/scarifier drag around over the classic track to cut it up as best as possible, then take our Ginzu out. Assuming the track is on the right side I'll go down the left side on the skate lane with regular tooth depth, then on the right side with deeper tooth depth and setting a track, then down the middle of the skate lane with 'regular' tooth depth and no track. This usually leaves a good classic track and flat skate area. The problem is it takes about 4 hours to do and if anyone is out night skiing it can be tough if they are classically until I get the tracks reset. I don't know any real numbers, but from the people I know, I'd guess we have a lot of competative skaters (and a high school team that only skates) some competative classicalers and then lots of casual classicalers. All of our trails are for skating and classic, we don't have any technique specific trails. For the most part our trails are 12' wide give or take a little depending on where. In the past I've usually tried to get the classic trail as far out as possible hoping the skaters would stay off it if they have enough room. This year I've been trying to groom a wide trail then pull the classic trail in a little to give them better pole plants and keep them out of the sticks. We also did a lot of trimming this fall to cut back branches and weeds. |
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