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For those with the "new" Alum. Ginzu's....
Topic Started: Nov 2 2008, 09:44 AM (1,568 Views)
couchsachraga
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Edited message:
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As Sherpa Man seems convinced I'm trying to copy something, and I am not, I'll pose what I'm trying to figure out directly. I personally prefer figuring it out from hard numbers myself, but I don't want to cause confusion or ill-will amongst our community either.

The concerns I'm trying to address in my design are as follows:
1) Am including too much "depth" - the new Ginzu seems closer to the snow than the old one (the frame)- What depth (top rail to snow) do folks like for XC? Same height as hitch? Higher/Lower?

2) Is my Angle more shallow than the Ginzu (I feel it "pulls" too much snow in soft conditions. That's something I see that needs changing. The newer Ginzu may have addressed that - I've heard it is better. But I do not know.) So, what angle of packing bar to snow IS appropriate? My thinking now involves a variable packing bar. More moving parts, but you're able to adjust for snow type.

3) Is the steel I plan on using ball park the right size. Right now I have 2X4 box, and it's really heavy, which leads to Q4 What is the MINIMUM strength you feel is appropriate for an XC groomer with a cutter of some sort. Express however...size, tensile strength, whatever.

4) How short (comb / teeth / sled distance) have other folks tried, and what is the outcome. My hope is to see if there were distance ratio's that did, or didn't work, to minimize washboarding.
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Remainder of original message, which had asked for measurements from which I hoped to figure out the above:

I have a line on a few used implements....but if they fall through, I want to have my plans all set to build. I'm mostly set, but want to compare to the newer Ginzu in case there are a few more thoughts to incorporate. I know the new Ginzu is really, really nice, but have yet to use one.

Thank you!
Edited by couchsachraga, Nov 7 2008, 07:42 PM.
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Sherpa-man
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This is just sort of a curiosity thing, but what is it exactly, about copying someone else's design do you think is okay? Just curious, because I know the Tidd folks and the YTS folks put a lot of time, money, and effort into coming up with their designs... and neither one of them is gettin' rich off of groomer sales.

It just doesn't seem right to me, why not innovate instead of copy?

:myopinon:
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couchsachraga
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Mr. Roberts (and other's who may wonder) As I tried to make it clear, I DO NOT want to copy. I'm curious about the respective dimensions between the two (Tidd vs. Ginzu) so I can understand where they're coming from. The new Ginzu's are MUCH shorter than the old ones, which from a weight perspective is great...but the Tidd folks say that won't work, as it'll be washboarding the trail... The reason I'm looking for overall dimensions is also in regard to weight. I DO NOT plan on scaling the Ginzu, or G2 up or down - as you said, those folks have put a lot of time in, and I do not want to infringe on any patents or anything. BUT, innovation can come from looking at what folks have done, and improving upon it. Not having access to a new Ginzu, I want to include what's already out there in my thoughts. No doubt with my "brilliant" ideas I'll be duplicating some mistakes they've already made, but that's a risk we all take when we try to improve on things. I've done similar to whitewater canoes, and NO ONE has mistaken one of my from-scratch (started by building plugs, refining them, and then pulling a mold off) designs for any of the boats and influenced my design theories. This is likely one of the reasons your statement has touched a nerve - I am clear on how much time and effort they put in, but also know from working on my own designs (and having folks use MY designs as inspiration), that moving knowledge forward requires knowing what's out there in the past. If they want to include an idea or two from one of my boats, that's fine - as long as they do all their own work, and don't just copy it. That's how we've moved the sport of whitewater canoeing and squirting forward, and from my perspective that is how a lot of disciplines get moved forward.

For that matter, if I wanted to copy a Ginzu I believe I'd need more info, and preferably a lot of images....so although I understand the reason for your query, I also resent your assumption that all I want to do is copy one directly, particularly with my first statement in the original post about building my own groomer, and not wanting to make it too short.

If you have a problem with THAT you likely have a problem with YTS or Tidd as well - their designs are certainly not identical, and I am unaware that either has a claim of one "copying" the other, but they are definitely similar, especially with regard to the type of knife they use. Same concept, different implementation (and I believe understanding of what will work, and what does not, behind it - just like the Zitzow vs. Snyder theories of what makes a squirt boat work)

In a perfect world I'd have 4k to purchase a Ginzu or G2 Tidd, and wouldn't be trading friends for scrap steel...but unlike the snowmobile clubs or a commercial (or even not for profit) XC center, I'm not funded...just a guy who likes to ski. So scrap steal, poor welding skills, and a lot of thinking so as to not waste $$ is about all I have to work with.
:myopinon:


Enough of that.

If you have anything productive to add, even your own thoughts on distances between sled, cutting device, and comb to create a level trail vs. a "washboard" one, I'm all ears. In retrospect perhaps that's how I should have phrased my question, though quite frankly I prefer to look at successful implementations of an idea (preferably several different ones) when trying to figure why something happens they way it does, and what may be appropriate to design around it (e.g. creating a level trail, while keeping weight and length to a minimum), when I don't know what someone's background is.

:letsnow:
Edited by couchsachraga, Nov 7 2008, 09:34 AM.
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tolson
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I think it's a fine line between 'copy' and 'innovation'. The Ginzu has been around for quite a few years and the G2 was introduced in 2003. I think it's fairly safe to say Tidd Tech looked at the Ginzu and made some changes they thought would improve on it.

Ten years ago I built a 'copy' of the Tidd Tech Trail Tenderizer. Every year I've modified/improved it, so now it's a cross between the Tidd Tech Trail Tenderizer, Tidd Tech G2, and the YTS Ginzu. I made some modifications long before I'd ever seen the G2 or Ginzu, that are included in the G2 and Ginzu designs. They certainly didn't copy me - there were some obvious limitations to the Tidd Tech Trail Tenderizer, but it was a great starting point.

I've also designed and built drag's similar to those used on snowmobile trails - work great for leveling bumps and drifts.

I guess as long as you're doing it for personal use only, and looking to modify/improve a design, I don't think it's a problem. Tidd Tech and YTS have fine products, but they don't have a monopoly on good ideas for grooming.

My thoughts on your questions:

1. The height of the frame should be even with the hitch. Or at least level to the ground so you have a consistent platform to work from. I'm building a new frame for my home made Tidd Tech, and making the frame 3" higher for more room for teeth, wings, sweeps, etc. But the tongue on the frame will angle down to the hitch to keep the frame over the Tidd Tech level. I'm also BUYING a gooseneck hitch from YTS, so that will be adjustable (I don't think there's anything to improve on the gooseneck, so I thought I'd give YTS a little business and buy one).

2. The angle of the Ginzu is too steep, even on our 2007 model. It's angle is about 28 degrees (see picture). The article from when the G2 was introduced says it's bed is 20 degrees. As low as you can get it would be best. I know this might result in grooming too much powder and a 'hollow' trail, but at least you'd be able to get the groomer home. It's up to the operator to select the right implement for the conditions.

3. Steel - I've used 12 gauge 1.5" square tubing. It's always been strong enough, and the weight isn't too bad. Tensile strength - I have no idea - it's just 'weldable steel'...

4. We've never had any problems with 'wash boarding' with our 2007 Ginzu, but maybe a longer hitch would be smoother. My home made implements have always been on the long side - more room for everything. I'm impressed with how short the new Ginzu is, but also not sure if that is a plus. Less weight - yes, but in my mind being that short makes turning, going over snow banks, etc, harder. Just seems like that too me - no 'proof'!
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couchsachraga
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Thank you for your very thoughtful, helpful replies - I greatly appreciate it.

Right now part of my plans include an adjustable angle on the packer - I've noticed a few of the snowmobile drags have such, and it seems to me quite a good idea. Adjustment would be via a welded or bolted on screw (hitch jack basically), and would be independent. Frame height I'm still thinking about. I like your idea of a level frame, and slightly higher than the hitch, just for clearance reasons (the top of the ball on my hitch is 14"...that doesn't seem like a lot to me, when you know your cutter will hang down).

Speaking of which, my hope is to build a frame with a packer, and have a sub-frame I can try out different knife ideas on. The "cup knives" that are 3" wide, set up on angle iron, spaced 1" or so apart may be one item I try (with a flat bar 1' back to help level, as well as condense the snow...but it would be higher than the cutters (1" I'm thinking) to it would not cut itself.) Another cutter idea would be old york rake tines - I know Cowboy didn't have good luck with them, but talking to a local club they mentioned USED blades that have "sprung" a bit, after they've been cut shorter, work well. Who knows - perhaps in the end I'll have a set of interchangable cutter bars depending on conditions....

Back to the hitch - I hadn't thought of a gooseneck, but perhaps that is a great idea - keep the turning abilities up, while keeping the implement short overall.

I suspect for this year I may purchase a drag made locally for snowmobile trails, that the manufacturer has modified for ski clubs in the past, as well as start building my own drag. If I can get a good "frame" built up, with packer, that lets me have two different implements for packing (I have two sleds), and one that should "cut" well, and the other that I can continue tweaking.

Thank you again for your thoughts, this time, and previously.

I'll post progress as it happens. First step may be finding some better (lighter) steel than what I have now.
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Steve.M
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The goose neck hitch is great-Our Ginzu has one and I could climb a steep hill, turn the SWT to a side, crank the skis back and backup on myself-it only took me a year to figure out that manuver, but what a life saver. I could also use that trick to turn right around at an intersection-Todd, you'll love it! We may be foreced to pull with a Kubota TUV this winter, so a goose neck won't work there. :(

This is an interesting thread-we've made home made rigs over the past 25 years also, and like the Ginzu (08 model) and now are going to give the G2 a try. I agree, the angle on the Ginzu is really steep and in soft snow-forget it, it'll get stuck with piled on snow. The G2, in the limited time we could try it last March, handled deep snow better. I also like the remote cable controls and battery box on the groomer also, instead of hard wiring the sled. It worked flawless.
The cutting teeth on the Ginzu work great-nice fine adjustment of depth. The G2 we don't have diled in yet-it's set up with a "trip spring" so if you hit something, it trips the teeth over. Problem is, it did that all the time on just hardpack-kinda defeats the purpose. Seems the problem is with mounting the hitch, the hitch plate and having everything rock solid, no play at all. TT sent us a new gooseneck hitch mounting plate-hope that solves the problem. We'll also beef up the ball hitch plate on the SWT...that seems to flex a bit.

Good luck with the project-post pictures!
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tolson
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I like the idea of a sub-frame so you can try different cutting teeth and swap them for different conditions!

I had read the previous post about the yoke rake I have one on the back of my tractor and it's the best implement for grading and leveling dirt. But for grooming, I just think it would be too heavy and too aggressive. Maybe a Cat 0 one would be light enough and the tines would be more flexible. :myopinon:

Another thing to plan into your design is something like the snow transfer blades on the G2 or the wings/sweeps on the Ginzu. I've been working on several designs for these, but the most important function is to move snow from the edge of the trail into the middle for the teeth and track setter to work with.
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