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Idea for XC groomer..york rake?
Topic Started: Aug 6 2008, 09:09 AM (1,403 Views)
couchsachraga
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As much as I'd like a Ginzu or G2, I just can't afford one, so I'm dreaming up new "improved" grooming implements I might be able to fabricate this fall...and I was wondering...has anyone ever included a landscape ("york") rake as part of a groomer? I envision the rake being raised or lowered via trailer hitch jacks, and only including the "tine" part (no need for the heavy 3ph), all set on a frame similar to the Ginzu frame with snow comb on the back.

So, I was wondering...has anyone tried using a york rake in this fashion, and did it work? My thought is that it works well in dirt, just taking the top, and with the "spring" action I wouldn't have to worry as much about rocks, stumps, etc (why I don't like blades...I would destroy a SnowRazr in 1 day up on my trails...).

Think snow!
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cowboy
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Yeah, I've tried it, doesn't cut real well. Tends to dredge up fairly large chunks in hard snow. Tried different spacing and it didn't seem to help much. Fairly hard to pull also(really hard to pull at times).

Personally I think the tines being blunt is the biggest issue, and maybe too stiff. When you hook a stump you'll wake up.

The Ginzu and Tidd-Tech have the right idea using "knives", much less resistence and smaller chunks.

I've lately been drooling over "rake" tines off hay equipment. The bigger ones look like they'ed work better than the landscape rake, much lighter also. Put something on the end of them to help them cut and pull up snow,(knives?).. They'll also give when you hit something.


Northern Tool has 12v electric acturators in 3 different lenghts. Mid $100's.

I've got a plan, (if I get time this fall and it doesn't dump enough to use the PB) to replace the packer bar on our Bobcat UTV with something that cuts. I'll let you know if it works.
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couchsachraga
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Cowboy - thank you for your thoughtful reply. From your profile it looks like you're in a beautiful part of the world - my wife and I just got back from a trip around WY, CO, UT, MT, and a bit of BC. Nice trip, but the gas bill was pretty big. First time we've been able to head west though (she teaches, and our summers have been busy until now).

Regarding the rake, did you have it set up to be able to control the "down pressure" for lack of a better term (so you could set the rake to just graze the surface rather than the full weight down all the time?). I'm not sure which would work better (if either will, especially after your comments), but I have been impressed with how well my current snowmobile trail style groomer processes snow (a plow blade with "teeth" cut in to it). If you keep a nice roll of snow going in front of it it produces a really nice surface for the packerbar to smooth down - in a lot of conditions as well as a ginzu (in ice you can't do much, but then the ginzu is pretty slow going then too).

I've thought about welding a bunch of "slats" on to a bar to create knives, but I've been thinking that might just mark the snow up...not sure though.

I think for now I'll build a nice frame / packer bar, and be able to try out different things to use as a cutter in the snow. I just hope I can fabricate something relatively light - that's the one big issue with my current unit...it's quite heavy, particularly when compared to something like the original Tidd Techs.

On another note, what Bobcat UTV are you using (toolcat?) and how is it set up? I'm hoping to be able to switch from an old Alpine to a cabbed unit eventually, and though I'd really like a real snowcat i suspect I'll wind up with a tracked / cabbed tractor (I'm planning on upgrading my tractor soon anyway to a newer unit) or a UTV of some sort (that will either complement or replace the tractor, depending on what it can do).

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cowboy
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I use a tiller for 99.9% of my grooming and I'm spoiled by it. The sleds and UTV are for early season(first 2-3ft) and as a backup to the PB if it's down for long.

This could take a while to explain(grab a drink)

First our terrain, 500ft elevation gain/loss on roughly 350 acres in the core area, (2500 acres total, 50+km of trail). Less than 1/4 mile of anything that might be mistaken for "flat". Constant grades of 15%+/-. Several hills around 30% for 100's of feet. One hill over 40% for better than 200ft. A roller coaster ride on skis.

Snow, 20ft+ yearly, light, dry, cold, bottomless fluff. Add to it Wyoming's famous wind, you end up with a nightmare on snow. Peak gust last year was 128mph. Normal daily is 15-25, gust to 40+. Real wind is 35-50, gusts to 75+. Wind increases temp's 40+deg in 12 hrs.
All this results in some unique conditions, without a blade and tiller it's hopeless. We get roughly 1.5" packed snow out of a foot of new snow. 3 main snow conditions, concrete, bottomless fluff, bottomless wind blown sugar(zero traction).

Equipment, 10ft PB100, Bobcat 2200 Diesel UTV w/M3 UR Mattracks. Sleds. The Bobcat has a 25hp kabota in it. It REALLY needs a turbo at our elevation, 8000ft.( they make a 2300 with a 3-circuit hydralic lift/push frame from the factory to run a bucket, blade, forks, etc. Full heated cab etc. neat machine. Plans to get one backfired, so I'm left with our 2200.) I made a stinger for the back to lift the bar, fits in the receiver. It's free to float,swing sideways to follow and pitch(roll) up and down from side to side. It centers when lifted so you can back up, etc. Run off 12v acturators. The packer bar is from Falline, customed by me to work. This year I'm building a blade and push frame that's a mini PB set-up. Run by 12v also. Top speed is 20mph with wheels, w/tracks it redefines slow on our hills. Pukes black smoke, leaves a black trail at times also. With out the blade on front it's a bit tail heavy, it climbs and pulls pretty well as long as there's a base under the new stuff. Drive it into deep sugar/soft snow(no base) you'll need the PB to get it out. It sets about 6" higher than a Ranger with Polaris tracks and goes better also. Just hideously slow. The added weight of the blade helps keep the front end down on hills and really helps climbing. Find a way to turbo it and it'd be awesome. Needs power steering also.

My various attempts at sled grooming implements for my conditions has been an adventure. Tried the little Mogul Master type, too heavy, couldn't pull them. Slick snow, steep hills, hit a stump and end up in front of your sled on top of the broken windshield. The "rake" deal has so far showed the most promise. Yeah I could move the tines up and down depending. The biggest problem was chunk size, the wind blows away all the "fines" and you're left with golf balls and frozen slabs. The tines tended to bring up stuff from peas to grapefruit. It doesn't lay back down very well. In low snow(sub 6" base) it broke the snow from the dirt and brought rocks, sticks, etc to the surface with the chunks. In your conditions it may work.

If you look hard at the Ginzu and G2, the knives have an angle or curve to them to lift and turn the cut pieces. The rake tines "sheared"? and you didn't get a consistent size, just whatever broke off. When you got into the drifty stuff it cut and feathered it fairly well. Same with softer snow. In hard snow, the resistence was up with the multi bladed drags, too much steel in the snow??

Normally I don't mess much with sled grooming, maybe 2 weeks early in the year. The last 2 years I've gone from mid Oct til X-mas on less than 2ft. Since we sold our old Tucker last year, and the 2nd PB is still a year or two out, the UTV is it for backup. My problem with the Ginzu I can't lift it to back up or doze out a drift or when I spin out. At shows and confrences I've pulled both and looked hard to see if I can lift them by stinger. The 109" Ginzu is over 400lbs w/tracksetter, and fairly long. I really dont think I can lift it and still get around and not break things.

So, my plan is more along the lines of a "tiller box", something that I can lift. Much more tiller like, than drag like. Most of it is built, just waiting for snow. The borrowed "snow plow" on the front will be replaced with a real blade soon. The blade does all the real work anyway. I'll try to get some pics this fall.

Shouldn't be long, the leaves have already started to turn. We were having snowball fights the 12th of july, still!!!
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couchsachraga
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Cowboy - thank you very much for taking the time to write all that - it helps tremendously! I'm going to keep thinking a bit before I start gathering materials and welding.

One thought for you - have you considered a tractor with Soucy tracks (like the L5740 (Kubota) Yannick is selling)? My thought is it would make a nice summer rig for farm upkeep, and in the winter use as a groomer (my thought was to use the 3ph to raise the Ginzuoff the ground (if the ginzu frame wasn't strong enough, use a boom pole with chains that allow it to move side to side in a turn, yet it lifts high enough to get the unit (still attached at the hitch) off the ground in a controlable way.

I'm jealous of your PB100! I've operated a PB070 for years part time for another ski center (with the same amount of trails as you have roughly - 55-60km of groomed, with very little flat (one trail - a frozen old tailings pond!), as well as a PB160 and Bombardier BR180mp+ . I wish the new owners would / could come up with the cash for a PB100 (or perhaps a Paana).

Thank you again taking the time. Our first snow is usually early October, but there's usually not enough to groom until Nov. (in a good year). we get 100" + a year, but it's much more dense. (sometimes an 8" snow will pack to 3" with light equipement). Even after a few good melts in the spring we usually have 5' or more on the ground.
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cowboy
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Over the last 15yrs I've looked at all sorts of stuff. The final verdict, If I can't get it under 1.5psi fully loaded, it won't work in my conditions.

A couple years ago a tower maint. crew came in with tracks on a tractor, the wind came up, took us better than 6 hrs with our 950 loader and 143 blade to retieve them. They were on a "blown road" that drifted in while they were working, got stuck that evening trying to get out. 500yds from our plowed county road.

Perhaps the best machine to get around in was our old 91 tucker wide track w/tiller and 8-way. Point A to point B nothing could/can touch it. I've drug Terra's and their drags hooked up, out of some nasty stuff and not really felt them. The full size alpine cats can beat it in a straight up climb, but that's about it in soft snow.


Our 100 is a stud, but it has limits. It's tail heavy with the tiller on, the engine is more or less mounted in the middle of the cat. The fuel tank in the front. 15 deg is about it in 2ft+ if it's straight. Throw in a side hill or a turn and you need to pay attn. Put the packer bar on, 300lbs vs 1400 for the tiller and 3 t.s., and you can get over 20 deg. Less than a 18" and 20 deg is doable with a full blade of snow just a rolling.

That Paana looks tail heavy also, we asked a bit this summer. The big cats are balanced much better, I can't go next door and follow the big PB's, I've tried. Not even a contest. Our next machine will be fullsized.

I think the tractors are a neat thing if they can work for you. Lots of plus's. A ginzu behind tractor seems like a fairly slick deal. Best of luck.


* the new version of the 100 should be coming out in a year or two. With paana and formatic under the pb umbrella, we might get something neat. I've seen pics of a 100 polar, 220 hp, is it it? The formatic 230 x-trail? the 200 x-trail is rumored to climb and push with the big cats. 5 axle like the trailbully??? time will tell
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Sherpa-man
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How's this?
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couchsachraga
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You either need more snow, or that is REALLY hard pack!

Nice set up though - I wish I could use my current tractor like that.

I'm surprised you haven't put a Curtis soft sided cab on it, to keep the wind down if nothing else.
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