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| Tucker 2000 Pulling a Marcel Drag; Any info on how well the Tucker pulls it | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 1 2008, 09:07 AM (4,523 Views) | |
| groomerbob | Apr 4 2008, 08:43 PM Post #31 |
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If someone has a used Sur-trac out there and doesn't like it, contact me. I'll take it off there hands! We're always looking for good deals on low hour Sur-tracs. |
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| drmiller100 | Apr 5 2008, 08:16 PM Post #32 |
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i'm really new to the groomer program. we have pbedges, a surtrack, challenger, a bunch of drags and tillers for the pbs. last year the only thing used was pbedge and tiller. end of last year and this year we ran the surtrack some. on days with 3 feet of fresh powder, going over the 8 percent grade, you take the pb. the surtrack just won't make it. tiller is the prettiest trail you have ever seen, but the trail doesn't last, and they are slow. teaching someone to be decent running the blade of a pb to get ride of moguls takes a long time, even for "naturals". We are talking years. Teaching someone to be helpful with a pb takes a long time. I'm thinking 5 to 12 runs before you even think of turning them loose by themselves. Using a drag behind the pb cuts that learning process in half. Now look at the Surtrack. I can teach 95 percent of people to make a decent trail in 2 hours. There have been two people that I talk with them an hour, let them digest overnight, then 2 hour session, and turn them loose. At beginning of next shift, 30 minute discussion, and off they go. Here is my theory. If you cut the moguls with the front blades of the drags, and are moving forward, it is REALLY hard to not make a nice trail with a Surtrack. In our country, we burn 8 to 10 gallons an hour wth the PB with Tiller, 6 to 8 pb wtih drag, and 4 to 6 with sur track. we also groom a LOT faster with sur track then pb edge. average for me is 8 to 10 mph over a 10 hour shift in surtrack, 5 to 8 on same shift, same route on pb. so, on one 86 mile roundtrip run, I can do it in 9.5 hours and 50 gallons easy on surtrack, 12 hours and 80 gallons onn pb wtih drag, adn 13 hours and 100 gallons with tiller. when all done, unless it snows, the trail holds a LOT longer with surtrack then the tiller, and somewhat longer then our other drags. |
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| drmiller100 | Apr 5 2008, 08:26 PM Post #33 |
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preference. in our north shed we have a 2005 pb, and a 2005 surtrack. night comes, and the main trail needs groomed. I am the only person that will voluntarily take the surtrack over the pb, the rest of the drivers all prefer the PB. Why???? I have several theories. The pb is more comfortable. the seat is a LOT better in the pb then the surtrack. PB is more of a challenge. driver has to constantly adjust the blade to keep trail going well. drag needs more adjustment. PB is cooler looking. the surtrakc looks like, well, a farm tractor. our surtrack doesn't smell very good. don't know why. in the pb you can't see the drag, you can't see out back, so you don't bother looking and your neck doesn't hurt at end of night. drivers get paid by the hour, and if you take the surtrack out, you have to spend time cleaning the shop to make your hours for the week. pb rides better. it has suspension, and you don't get bounced around as much. |
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| roady | Apr 5 2008, 11:29 PM Post #34 |
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About all I got out of your thread is your not an all season operator and your an expert in grooming????? Not everyone loves Sur Tracks or PB's or Tuckers or those Yellow things. And Ohio's ST broke another axle housing, PRR hates the ST they have, Long Lake is ready to give theirs away and STH loves theirs. Personally I could care less. So tell me oh groomer expert what's up with this trail? ![]() |
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| SCRR | Apr 6 2008, 11:47 AM Post #35 |
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Looks like the club president was running the drag. Going too fast with the blades up trying to survive the winter without the club going bankrupt.
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| If you don't fall off your not going fast enough! | |
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| drmiller100 | Apr 6 2008, 01:44 PM Post #36 |
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i'll bite. someone ran it 3 times, each time losing some width. the snow was pretty old and hard. way off in the distance you can see a hump and a low spot that will get filled in in about 10 more passes. if we had the pb handy, we'd take off the hump with the big cat, then let the surtrack finish it off. nothing wrong with that trail at all. I'm pretty new at all this, but I'm betting Ian knows more about grooming trails then the rest of us put together, even if he isn't a "full time operator." what do you see??? |
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| jim228 | Apr 6 2008, 10:15 PM Post #37 |
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drmiller, the next time you take out that PB with a drag, try something different. Find the best position with the drag that is cutting moguls slightly in the front and continues to cut more with the next set of cutters and the same with the next set, making sure that the snow is going through the drag's pan all the while. It almost looks like mashed potatoes or clouds flowing through the drag. Do this only AFTER setting the front blade to where you want it, cutting moguls pretty good with the blade slightly tilted down on the right side of the trail and the left side of the blade brought back towards you just a bit. Any extra snow will now be forced into the trail to the left of the machine to be used up on the "return trip". Any holes left to be filled from the first trip (in my experience with our PBs, that's not too many) will then be filled that trip. Leave the drag where you set it, and DO NOT move it unless it builds up too much snow or not enough snow is being cut, processed and flowing through the drag, but only after you watch it for a bot. DO NOT CHANGE IT CONSTANTLY! I'd bet that's part of your problem. I think Ian also called it the same as I do... "the Ron Popeil method of grooming: SET IT AND FORGET IT!" The blade only is to be changed from the optimum spot when and if you get the same effect as I mentioned above with the drag... too much snow lift it "a hair", or not enough snow, drop it "a hair". By raising or lower the blade too much, you get an uneven trail. Think of the drag as a sort of "finishing drag", doing about 70% of the work with the blade. By leveling the trail in front of the machine, the unit will not get that up & down motion that is condusive to causing the roller-coaster trail effect when there's big moguls. On the return trip, set the blade straight, so as to NOT leave any snow on your already groomed trail. I have trained many drivers who do a great job for our club. Some learn in 1 or 2 trips, some 10 trips, and some will never have what it takes (they didn't make the cut for us!). I say that a PB is so simple to drive if one only realizes one thing BEFORE getting behind the wheel... Forget everything you know about driving any other groomer or vehicle for that matter. I train all of our drivers to do this one thing the same; they drive with one hand (right) on the joystick for the blade and only 3 fingers of their left hand on the left side of the steering wheeel (that's shaped like an airplace wheel). Your left hand ring finger is then able to push the windshield wiper's "swipe mode" when needed, as that button is right there on the side of the steering wheel console. A PB turns on a dime when one holds the wheel only about 2 -3 inches one way or the other and holds it there. Need to turn sharper, hold it just a bit more that way. Need to turn less, let it back towards center just a hair, while holding it steady there. Then when ready to turn back straight, just let go and the machine's steering wheel goes back to center detent all by itself with no need to turn it back by actually having to drive the machine constantly into and through corners as one has to do with some machines. How much more simpler can that be? A monkey with only half a brain could learn to drive a PB, IMO, if the operator is willing to learn something new with an open mind (I'm not knocking anyone that can't or doesn't feel comfortable in a PB, just making a statement of my findings while training new operators). And why can't you see the drag with your Edge? That small hump on the rear deck blocks it that much or did your club mount something there? Maybe that's the reason Kassborer left that hump off their specialty snowmobile trail groomer, The Trail Bully. I can see the drag 100% in the Trail Bully while only using my rear view mirror. No need to turn around and look. Plus you can see the blade 100% better in a PB because there's nothing in your way between the windshield and the blade. This really makes cutting burms in corners easier. I use a hard diving cut through a burm's outside edge, forcing the snow to be left on the inside of the corner to be leveled on the return trip. BTW- Our Trail Bully only uses 2.5 gallons per hour on a yearly average. I average almost 3 gph while using the machine hard and we have a couple of guys that only use around 2 gph (they don't work the trails as hard as I do yet). We pull MTN Snow Equipment 10' x 18' drags, and I agree with someone earlier that stated and showed proof that different drags yield different gph rates on similar machines. Must be the MTN drags are less fuel burners? My opinion is...Use a machine for what it was intended for!! |
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| 63ssrev | Apr 6 2008, 11:06 PM Post #38 |
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Ok, I did ask the guys in Pittsburgh, NH what they thought of thier Sure-trac set-up and here is what they said: "The biggest reason we are selling the Sur Trac is because it is five years old we try to trade all of our groomers after 5 years so we do not get stuck needing to buy 2 groomers in one year like we did 3 years ago. The Sur Trac is a great machine, and most of us agree that the drag does produce a better trail, but the downfall to this machine for US is the front plow blade on the tractor. We always use the blade on the Bully's because we are in a very heavy trafic area, with large birms to level out as well as large moguls in the trails, and we've found that we get much better results with the blade cutting the bumps and burms, and the drag finishing the trail. The blade on the tractor does not work at all like the PB, it works for the occational issue but its not for constant blading. When purchased it was far cheaper than the Bully but now the gap has closed significantly We have priced another NH tractor, as well as a Bully. We have found that with Maintenance, the costs are close to the Bully, parts are cheaper but there seems to be more of them, and parts have to be ordered just like the Bully's so we have to wait, we're not that close to a NH dealer. So anyways Its a great machine, but there is no perfect machine for grooming, as Bully's also have their downfalls, with large expensive parts breaking and such. If you are a club that doesn't use a blade that often like in a tucker, this machine would be much better suited for you. Also you touched on the fuel mileage, It's A bit better than the Bully, but not 40% unless you are really running the PB in the very high rpm range, but in these times any fuel savings is good." So to me it doesn't sound like "No one wants to use it and it's for sale" just it's 5 years old and they don't like the front blade. I would also bet they have a pretty good working relationship with thier PB/MM dealer and that has a lot to do with it also. Granted they are trying to sell it and they wouldn't come out and say it was a POS even if they thought it was.Oh yeah and they also said "The Sur Trac is a great machine and most of us agree that the drag does produce a better trail" ", but there is no perfect machine for grooming" So just like in life, work and play, EVERYTHING is a comprimise. The trick is finding the comprimise that is most effective for the situation at hand!!! |
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| jim228 | Apr 6 2008, 11:24 PM Post #39 |
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roady, what is wrong with that trail? Other than that slight wind-row? |
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| drmiller100 | Apr 7 2008, 12:48 AM Post #40 |
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all these machines burn 1 gallon an hour at a high idle at warm up. I'm curious how fast you are grooming to get under 3 gph???? also, my theory is that if i'm pulling a drag, and i have to do 70 percent of the work with the blade, the drag must really really suck. i'm listening though. on edit, i should clarify. when pulling a drag, i use the front blade to take off the tops of the moguls so the tractor doesn't rock. then I use the front blades of the drag to scour and cut to the bottom of the moguls. then use the rest of the drag to mix the snow, and spread it back out. again, i'm listening. |
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| jim228 | Apr 7 2008, 09:12 AM Post #41 |
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I've had the Trail Bully GPS'd at 11.7 MPH with a full blade AND a full drag at the same time and 12.4 just dragging. I work at 1900 rpms, which is about 9 mph. Sometimes slower and sometimes faster. The Trail Bully has a "cruise control" that holds the rpms at whatever you set it at up to 1900 revs. You then use the speed control dial for your ground speed, allowing an operator to drive how ever fast or slow they wish for different conditions. We have some 10 1/2' gates that we drive through at many road crossings and I can drive through them at 1900 rpms while only moving 1 track cleat at a time to barely squeeze by. The MTN drag doesn't suck by any means, in my experience. It's doing an unbelievably great job on the trails and they hold up very well, especially considering the traffic our trails receive. I don't HAVE TO use the blade for 70% of the work... it just works better that way. I talk to quite a few other clubs' drivers, and all of the PB groomer operators who CAN operate that way do and those trails get flattened on the first pass. If the snow is real hard and the blade doesn't want to work as well as it normally does, the drag can and is run lower using down pressure, allowing the front serrated blades to break up that hard, icy snow and process it. The Trail Bully is the same size as an Edge with the PB 100 motor (177 hp, 4 cyl. Turbo Mercedes), hydraulics, front blade, and splitter box. The rear drives are the same as your's, so the tractive effort is more than what a 100 has due to that additional torque. There isn't a 3rd pump (for tillers) on this snowmobile trail specific machine and it is lighter than the Edge. The idle is controlled by the computer and I don't recal any diff between warm up and normal idle (800 rpms). I gotta ask,... if you cut the moguls down to the bottom with the drag front cutters, how much snow falls over the sides and/or back of the drag? It's also about $25,000.00 less expensive than an Edge or a Tucker 2000. Consider the fuel savings and a club that burns $10,000.00 in diesel averaging 5-6 gallons per hour in ANY machine would save over $5,000.00 per year too! I'll add that if you had to take the PB out to fill a big hump or hole and THEN finish it with the SurTrac, you must not be using the PB the way it was meant to be used (or the SurTrac, for that matter). We had a major trail washout earlier this winter that required a plastic 15' x 10" culvert to be dropped in. The "hole" was about 15' by 4 feet wide by 3 foot deep. 1 pass, yes, 1 pass with the PB pushing a full blade and the drag completely full (I'd consider it just about overflowing by my standards) had it full on the right side (10' wide) after dropping the culvert down into the water and placing a couple of 4"x4" pressure treated posts on each side (to stop possible crushing of the pipe). The return trip I filled the other side and noone even knew there was a washout (well, except for the few who called me after their ride on that trail a day after a huge rainstorm, warning us about it to begin with). We went out to take the pipe out yesterday and it was still partially frozen in with ice still on the trail, while most all the rest of the immediate area's trails had nothing but mud on them. |
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| Ebert | Apr 7 2008, 12:05 PM Post #42 |
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1) Roady, why and how the heck did you come to a conclusion about my grooming experience from reading my previous response? After re-reading it, I still haven’t a clue why you make this somewhat insulting comment. What gives?!? If you’re going to take pot shots at someone, at least have the courtesy of backing it up with a REASON for doing so. <_< 2) Your comments about the three clubs who “hate” their Sur-Trac units… first of all, the way you put it is not how it really is (see 63ssrev’s comments above – he's pretty much spot on regarding Pittsburg, and there are similar undertones with both other clubs you mention). Second of all… is that really necessary? How did that comment contribute to the thread topic at hand? 3) What’s with the last trail photo? Looks like a Mogul Master (or similar) drag… the overlap ridge won’t present a problem… looks nice & flat… nothing wrong as far as I can see. But again you can’t tell from a photo. Who knows what’s going on under the surface? Anyways, now I’m just as guilty of diverting the thread topic. I always enjoy debating grooming techniques, but that’s not what this thread was about. Apologies to “46+” about the hijack. Roady if you want to debate some more or discuss my credentials, start a new thread. I’ll be right there, happy to discuss. Peace. Ian (not necessarily “seasoned” but definitely somewhat knowledgeable) Auger Ebert Welding Ltd Sur-Trac groomers |
| It's big & it's blue & it's coming for you! | |
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| drmiller100 | Apr 8 2008, 01:29 AM Post #43 |
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hmmmmm........... i think we have different conditions then you do. a pothole 15 feet by 4 by 3 is 180 cubic feet. or a a little over 6 cubic yards. yawn. yeah, you can fix them in one pass pretty easy. a drift that is 45 feet long, 10 feet tall, and 25 feet wide is what you need a PB for. and the days like those a drag really sucks cuz it takes a few passes. When we run our pb's over 10 mph, the mileage really heads downhill, and you have to run them over the optimal rpm range and i feel guilty cuz they sound like they are winding harder then they should, so i don't do it. when we run the surtracks over 14 mph, well, they go faster. for sure conditions have to be PERFECT for this. like everyone says, different tools for different conditions for different places. when you have 3 feet of fresh powder, pretty easy to blade and be a hero. when the snow is 5 days old, pretty easy to use a drag and be a hero. |
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| jim228 | Apr 8 2008, 09:01 AM Post #44 |
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Yeah, I am sure we have different conditions. Thousands of riders a day riding o the trails really beats them up. Taking hard, 3 foot moguls out on one pass is a pretty good accomplishment. As Ian said, we've highjacked the thread. Back to it... So, as 46+ asked: has anyone used a Tucker 2000 to pull that new BG Rossco drag? |
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| Greggie | Apr 8 2008, 12:19 PM Post #45 |
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Hi, The weight of a Rossco drag is about 5000 pound. There are sold about 25. If I am right the Watertown snowmobile club has one and they are pulling it behind a tractor with a Sourcy track kit. If you want to have more references, please reply and I can give the "manufactor" a call and give you more. Thanks, Greg |
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Going too fast with the blades up trying to survive the winter without the club going bankrupt.

4:37 AM Jul 11