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Tucker 2000 Pulling a Marcel Drag; Any info on how well the Tucker pulls it
Topic Started: Apr 1 2008, 09:07 AM (4,525 Views)
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I would suggest that you contact Barnes Corners Sno-Pals ( http://www.sno-pals.com/home_page.htm ) or Southern Tug Hill Sno-Riders ( http://www.southerntughillsnowmobileclub.c...le_club_001.htm ) who have considerable operating experience with these drags on Tug Hill.

In a previous post you suggested we get the opinions of those who actually operate the equipment and not rely on manufacturer's sales talk. We've done that. You might want to do the same - then we can go from there. I'd rather not give speculative answers to your hypothetical questions when the real data is readily available from current users.

Ted
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AFMI
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I would just like to point our a few points about our AFMI Trailmaker drags ,Greggie from west carlton commented that they needed to do some welding but what Greggie dosent realize is that at least one of thier drags is over ten years old and the other one probaly has 8 seasons on it now with alot of hard high hours and that thier first drag was used behind thier Tucker,Lamtrac and then put on behind the John deere ,The biggest cause of the fatigue issues stem from thier trail system ,they origanly groomed with an 8ft drag and had a hard time getting that through thier bush trails and then went to thier first 9ft they did no trail work and had to lift the drag up to get it between some trees,this caused major damage to those drags ,it was no fault of the design of the drag but over anxious groomer operators trying to pull these things through places you could barely get an 8ft through,Show me other drags that are that old with that many hours that havent been welded on ,thier arent many out there I dont care what make they are,But the one thing West Carleton noticed was thier fuel consupmtion of thier Tucker was cut in half when using our drag and it also cut down thier grooming time and they had a better quality trail.Some one commented about trackside ,they were our first customer in NY state and update thier drags every few seasons because they found they can groom alot of hours with very little expense on the drag and still be able to sell it for close to what they paid for them,as far as having to do some repairs to them its all part of it ,snowmobile trail grooming is one of the hardest things on any piece of equipment especially the drag ,How would anyone of you guys like to get hooked to the back of a machine and dragged over rocks ,stumps,dirt ,deep snow no snow ,you get my point things break and get worn out and thats all thier is to it ,Just remember when looking to buy a groomer or a drag that your trail system is the key ,If you can only get an alpine through your system thier is no use in you buying a EBERT,anyways buy somthing that will work for your trails and give you a high quality trail at a low cost per mile ,the cost of fuel these days is a major factor in your grooming budget ,if you double groom your trails and they are only 10 feet wide then dont buy a 10 ft drag ,when you do you return trip your just wasteing fuel ,if you go with an 8ft you can make it 16feet wide coming back if you want to at alot cheaper cost ,Anyways to stand up for our product we have 532 afmi drags on the snow from coast to coast and probaly have 528 happy customers ,you cant please everyone . Gord Costello
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jim228
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Ted, I did,... by RIDING on the freshly groomed facts. I was on TC's, Redfield's, OF's, Plateau's, Osceola's, STH's, BC's (albeit with their older Marcel set-up and MM behind their PB), WRR's, Trackside's, PM's, TTB's, Brantingham's, Inlet's, Indian Lake's, Long Lake's, Kasoag's, Pulaski's, LCTB's, T-V's, Lost Trails' snowmoile trails this winter on several occasions, as well as many others, just as the groomers went past me so I got to see the freshly groomed ribbons first hand. The fact is (in my observations) that there was no distinct difference in the snow pack in any of these areas when you ride on what the drag just laid down, unless it was "warm" snow and it was getting colder out fairly quickly at sundown. Then, IMO, almost any drag/groomer combo can do a fine job, but that's where the operators are the main factor then.
What is fact is that when I am riding with people that have NO grooming experience whatsoever and they can tell the difference between where one club ends and another begins solely on trail conditions (all recently groomed too), these people can see/feel it for themselves and ask why. There are many factors, like blading the trails with an aptly able machine so you don't get the rocking effect and subsequent "roller-coaster" trails (caused by the drag cutting then dumping snow as the front machine goes over moguls), drags not being lowered enough, drags being lowered too much, pushing snow burms OFF the trail in the corners in order to make a sharp turn, and many more. Traffic is huge as a factor in hiw much a trail needs to be groomed, but I can seem to undersand how any drag takes 2 or more passes to level a trail. A good operator like Paul or Gary for BC (and many others I know of) could make a less than ideal machine/drag combo look good in many different scenarios.
Like I said, I am sure that I will be able to see it next year and my questions can be answered first hand. I was just relying on your personal conclusions of your extensive research to help out, since there's no snow being groomed to see it right now.
If you already know the answers and have your mind set, why ask for input and then not clarify your statement about "bleeding" snow from these type drags?

Good points above, Gord. So one can reasonably expect to see a higher fuel bill with a heavier drag? I agree with that, but I would like to see it from a club that went from one type drag to a heavier one and can then report facts about the change. What did Greg's club use before the AFMI? I am sure that in 10+ years and over 500 units, you have updated your drag building too. Trackside speaks very highly of your company and the trails are always great with your drags behind their BR's.

We had a few people telling us to use tractors on our trails for years because "they use less fuel". Well, after 5 gallons per hour for 2 years in a tractor compared to 2.5 in a groomer set-up for snowmobile trail use, we used facts to come to our own conclusions. Hense, 2 snow grooming machines. But I did a lot of research into the Marcel units a while back and like the possible opportunity to use the machine year round. The 4 track systems seem to be easier for us "non-mechanic" volunteers, so our next machine could be a tractor. The farmer and his sons that run our 2nd groomer can run anything, so having "operators" grooming those trail miles with a tractor would be not issue. I am concerned about having "too much to do" for those volunteer drivers that we have that may not be able to handle all the operating of such a machine and the complexities of these new tech drags on the rest of our trails. By seeing it for myself and having input from those clubs that have used both, good advice should be and can be had.

We recently had one of our newer drags "drop off" the edge of a raised 10' wide trail by an unobservant driver and it hit a 3' around tree, slightly kinking a side rail just a bit. Later that year, the same drag took down a 24" round, 10' tall, metal road crossing control pole. I'd like to see what other brands would look like that were put through that same torture! I can't very well blame the drag manufacturer, as the speed and force it hit the tree was pretty good. Nothing that can't and won't be fixed by us, especially since it did nothing to affect the trail it leaves behind.
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AFMI
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Jim just to answer your question ,they were pulling a homemade arrowhead/mogal master copy 8ft ,they went to a 9ft and it was easier to pull .
You just have to remember that heavier isnt better ,heavy uses weight to try and squeeze the air out of the snow ,and we beat the air out before it gets to the pan ,this takes less horsepower,you dont have to cut so deep so not to disturb the base and the trail sets up faster because the air is removed and the frost gets right into it ,less weight ,lower fuel cost ,lower cost per mile , the other big advantage with a fixed pan drag is that we already did the research and figured out the best pan angle for the majority of the snow conditions,this way the operator just has to set his cutting height untill he gets it to where he feels it is processing the best and just leaves it alone ,this is what we call "set it and forget it " ,you then cut down your grooming time because you are not fooling around with the drag ,its doing its job and you are watching whats going on ahead of you .
I hate to ramble but when i have seen these topics going in circles year after year I get a little agitated ,I have been grooming for over 20 years and have groomed pretty well with every piece of equipment out there from coast to coast in both Canada and the US and I think I pretty well have snowgrooming figured out .

Gord
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Greggie
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It is all what do you want, an "old style" drag of a new style drag. Fuel consumption, for sure there is a difference, when I groom with a light 9 feet drag, it use for sure less fuel that a more heavier drag what does also a much better job. If you look at our AFMI drags, they were fine when we bought them, but now in 2008 they are still the same as in 2000. So in my opinion they are out dated. Sorry Gord that is my opinion. Another point, I am not sure if the "new style" drags are the best drag to pull behind a Tucker. I drove a Tucker on the Groomer Demo day, and I couldn't see how much snow there was in the drag. The "new style" drag need for sure more adjustment while you are grooming.

Another feature what an option for the Ebert Welding drag is a hydraulic gate at the end of the drag. If you have lots of snow in your drag you and open the "gate" completly and in 20 feet all snow is gone. Also if you want to cut moguls, you get lots of snow in your drag and with an open gate, it works great.
Thanks,

Greg
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jim228
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Thanks for the honest and experienced replies Greg. BTW- did the Tucker you drove have a regular or the 5 man extended cab where you couldn't see the drag too well out of?
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Greggie
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It was a Tucker 1000 with the regular cabin. The only view on the drag you have is with mirrors. As I said we are using John Deere 6410 with a Surtrack track system. This works well for us. Both John Deere's had before another track system, what gave always problems, so we scraped it. We used this season for about 50 hours a Cat Challenger what did a great job. I think our next groomer will be the Cat Challenger. It is heavy but you don't need any modifications and they are build to run lots of hours. I have heard Cat's with 20000-30000 hours and still running fine. Our next drag will be a "new-style" drag.

I give my opinion and sometimes it is painfull for manufactures, sorry about that but they have to build also a reliable product and not a piece of sh*t.. But I think giving a honest opinion helps manufactures and snowmobile clubs.
Thanks,

Greg
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tlc_skidoo
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We have a Tucker 1000 pulling an AFMI 7L, and with the state and the nearby clubs there are 6 Tucker 1000's. Out of the 7 Tucker 1000's in the area, 3 are using AFMI 7L's, 1 is using an AFMI 8L, 2 are using Mogul Master 1608's, and 1 is using a Mogul Master 1607, and there is an extra Mogul Master 1607 that can be used by one of the club's using an AFMI 7L.

Those using an AFMI drag are using 1/4 to 1/2 the fuel, and seldom require more passes to achieve the same quality product. In our case we are averaging at 1800-2000 RPM, approx. 2 gallons per hour while grooming in our T1000. The drag is lighter so in deeper fresh snow when others are rolling or packing without the drag we are panning our trails, in which our fuel consumption tends to be 2 1/2 to 3 gallons per hour. Weight is needed for compaction, but processing is at least equally as important, and in our case the AFMI drag, and those around us running them are allowing us to save fuel and produce a decent product. When combined with the better design for the trip blades compared to other drags that can trip we are able to use it in less than stellar conditions.

There are many great drag designs and it is up to individual and their terrain and needs. We like what we have.
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Snowbirds
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Cannot comment on the Tuckers ability to pull any drag but can say somthing about the Sur-track drag, ours has the hydraulic endgate and the dual circuit configuation where the wheels and pan are seperate, so your pan setting doesn't change if you put the wheels down. IT IS THE BEST DRAG OUT THERE PERIOD.
If we could get another one our Gilbert would be pulling one also, the fixed pans just don't cut it anymore.
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flyingcow
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Got to agree with snowbird. Fixed pans area thing of the past. We have a ts110 suretrac, and a tm140 suretrac with the end gate option. Until you operate one, you probably won't understand the "bleed" thru the pan. Fuel? 2.5-2.7 gals per hour(110)/2.7-3.2 per hour (140)
I know "grooming snow" has some good posts, but we have some deep snow. Out there in the midwest, low snow and hard pack conditions. Don't get deep moguls that way. Trying to groom with a tractor that has tires is a lot diff than up here.Impossible to do.
We have had some serious moguls, never have had to use the blade.Why cut your trail with a blade? Drag does it all. thats where the adjustable pan and end gate works the best. 1 pass and go home. No waves in trail, I've seen r/r bes that have waves in them,(fixed drag) and rode onto where another club grooms with an adjustable drag and voila! No waves.
Still curious how these drags would work without hooked up to the tractors? Seems like you wouldn't get the same effect hooked on a pintle.
well now that I might have stirred things a little, time to go to bed. :floor:
Equipment used - Suretrac TS-110 and TM-140

www.benedictasnowgang.com
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63ssrev
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jim228
Apr 3 2008, 10:45 AM
Ted, I did,... by RIDING on the freshly groomed facts.  I was on TC's, Redfield's, OF's, Plateau's, Osceola's, STH's, BC's (albeit with their older Marcel set-up and MM behind their PB), WRR's, Trackside's, PM's, TTB's, Brantingham's, Inlet's, Indian Lake's, Long Lake's, Kasoag's, Pulaski's, LCTB's, T-V's, Lost Trails' snowmoile trails this winter on several occasions, as well as many others

Jim, If you rode all of these club's systems you must have noticed how consistantly better STH trails were compared to most other club's systems. (I won't say all because I don't think I rode all of the ones you did, but most of them) I can't decide whether it is the machines, thier grooming schedule (every night weather permiting) or the lack of traffic compared to other parts of the hill. I will say this though, everywhere that I have ever ridden that was groomed with a Sur-trac has been consistantly better than trails groomed with any other combination. I have seen it on the Hill, in Jackman, ME and even in the Southern Tier of NY. You can tell the difference when you leave a system groomed by a Sur-trac compared to any other combination of equipment. Can other combinations make them flat again? Sure, but the trails don't seem to stay as hard or flat with any other combination in my observations. Trails groomed with a Sur-trac seem to develope small stutter bumps at the end of the day, but never seem to develope the big rollers or huge moguls that other systems do. Some of it could be terrain and a lot of it is probobly traffic on the Hill, but I have said it on another forum that I would like to see how the whole Hill would fair if the whole thing was groomed with Sur-tracs. Might not make a difference in some areas, but it would be interesting to see none the less.

Don't get me wrong, I am not criticizing any other clubs grooming efforts (which were very good this year) or thier equipment and I hope other clubs in the area don't take offense to my observations, but the seat of my pants doesn't lie to me and it has noticed that when you see the sign leaving the areas groomed by a Sur-trac the ride gets rougher. :myopinon: (P.S. I am not a Sur-trac salesman or affiliated with Sur-trac in any way shape or form just observations I've made from riding different areas)
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jim228
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I would have to rank Trackside as #1, as each and every time I was on them, their groomers were out or they all were just getting done. EACH TIME! :jump:
TC and STH are a close 2 and 3, with the edge going to TC (IMO). Twice I would say that STH could have been better, as the trail from Swancott's Mills to Florence where they meet TC was really bad. Once so bad, we rode Creek Rd. to get to TC's groomer driver's camp trail. :shrug: Not knocking them, as they are well above 99% of the rest of the clubs, again IMO. But there was at least 3 times when the riders with me commented that they heard STH was so good at grooming, and why are the trails the worst of the day? Then we pass one of their groomers on our way back home, and all is fixed. STH is a really great club and does a great job. I'd like to see what that same club could do with 3 groomers of any make that are the same age as what they have now and are out as many hours as they currently groom. I'd bet you wouldn't notice any big difference if any at all. Having new equipment definately makes a huge difference. But I was not and have not been overly impressed with their trails right after being groomed, as the snow is the same consistancy on all. Pushing snow from corner burms completely off the trail also has me scratching my head. That snow would come in handy when the base gets low, so why do it? Is it because the SurTracs don't turn well? So now this winter it seemed as they straightened out some of their sharpest corners a bit to make it easier on their tractors. Again, I am not knocking them... they do a great job and deserve all the credit in the world. Besides West Rome's, I was on STH's the most so the chances of seeing their trails not 100% is obviously higher.
Only once this winter can I say that TC was lower then their normal high standard trails. And I think it was a new groomer operator issue with having some awfully bad launching pads at each small hill or knoll. After the 1st one, we slowed down quite a bit so as to not fly into the other side of the trail into oncoming traffic. Others I talked to noticed the same on that same day, but they can be forgiven for not being perfect all year.
By using my top 2 clubs as indicators, they don't have SurTracs to groom with, so why are they so good? My belief is that grooming hours at night is why these 3 particular clubs are tops in this area, as well as how much they groom. Traffic on all these clubs seemed to be similar, so there goes that argument. :grm:
BTW- Barnes Corners would have to be my #4 club, but I only rode there 3 times this year. But if I had to compare them with their surrounding clubs on the same day with the same traffic, they are a head above, no doubt. And then in the past I have went out of my way to stay away from Redfield's trails, but 4 times this year they seemed to be really good. A nice improvement, along with Pulaski too. Probably the best improvement there. Osceola is always good too, but if one doesn't know the diff between Cedar Pines bumpy trails and Osceola's nice trails, you could get mixed up.
:myopinon: :my2c:
I think that Trackside is even better than Webb and Inlet is far better than Webb. Trackside doesn't get nearly the funding OF/Inlet gets though and some could argue they don't get the traffic that OF?Inlet gets. True, but still I gotta give them their due credit. If they weren't bound by the ADK rules, one can only imagine what they'd have if their trails weren't so winding. Consider this and they really deserve a slap on their backs.
Almost every club I mentioned seemed to do better than I personally have seen them do in the past. Kudo's to all. :scool:
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roady
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Ask the guys in Pittsburg NH what they think of the Sur Track set up.
No one wants to use it and it's for sale. And from what I saw it didn't lay down a ribbon like the PB/MM set up they also use.

I also rode STH and TC trails late this season. I thought TC's trails were better overall but in all fairness terrain does come into play.

I hear alot of you talking about not being able to see the drag and know what's in it. What ever happened to the seat of the pants feel?

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Pekabu
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roady
Apr 4 2008, 08:22 AM
Ask the guys in Pittsburg NH what they think of the Sur Track set up.
No one wants to use it and it's for sale. And from what I saw it didn't lay down a ribbon like the PB/MM set up they also use.

I also rode STH and TC trails late this season. I thought TC's trails were better overall but in all fairness terrain does come into play.

I hear alot of you talking about not being able to see the drag and know what's in it. What ever happened to the seat of the pants feel?

I've talked to some members from PRR about there groomers, but alas they didn't run them. The only tidbits of info they had were many felt that it set a hard trail, but it always seem to treated as the black sheep. I've also heard at first the were losing rear tires until they put torquing lug nuts on the pre/post check.

I've wondered if it's because of the machine, support, or being more familiar with the PB's? It seems clubs in this state will stray a bit from one brand but typically go back. There have been a few Tractor conversions around but not many that I know of. PRR typically has the big PB's. It works for them. One of the members told me they tried a BR180 out once. Mangled the blade the first day and sent it back. I thought it was interesting because the BR was smaller than anything in there fleet. Tuckers are pretty popular in the state. The operators I've talked mention the ease of fixing things and parts availibility at Napa. Tracks seem to be a common issue.

There are a bunch of BR's running through the state. I haven't talked to anyone running one other than us.

MM work pretty well for us, and most in the state but there really isn't much else. I've seen a couple of other trip drags, but it seems that whats being run is typically whats avaible in the area. (Pisten Bully, Tucker, Prinoth, Mogul Master).
Southern NH Snow Slickers
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Ebert
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Hey Roady… I’ll see your trail picture and raise you a couple! B)

As a drag manufacturer I’m going to stay out of this thread… but I do have a couple generalized comments first;

#1 – A picture of a trail doesn’t really say anything. The way the trail surface looks behind the drag is dependant on so many factors; maybe an operator needs more experience… maybe a drag needs new blades, skags, repairs… maybe the speed was too high/low… etc. As you can see from my photos below, a smooth ribbon is indeed possible with a Sur-Trac drag. Quite easy to achieve, actually. However, to an inexperienced operator a Sur-Trac drag can present more of a challenge in attaining this ribbon, but only because it has so many more possible settings.

#2 – A smooth “ribbon” is not at all an indicator of effective grooming. There are only 6 people that care about what a fresh trail surface “looks” like… the groomer operator and the first 5 sledders after the groomer. The remaining 894 sledders only care that the operator completely “re-set” the trail (ie: removed the moguls BELOW the surface) so that it's still flat by the time they hit it hours/days later. Of course there’s nothing wrong with an operator taking pride in laying a ribbon… but the surface is nowhere near as important as the density below it.

So other than not being pretty, I see no indication in Roady’s photo that this is a bad trail. Since it looks flat, if it was well cut/processed/packed it should withstand sled traffic just fine.

P.S. ...If I were to guess why the trail surface in Roady’s photo looks like that, judging by the striations / markings I’d say the back of the knife frame was a tad too low… but that’s just a guess.

P.P.S. ...Operating a piece of industrial equipment “by the seat of one’s pants” is a scary thought indeed. Try operating a bulldozer or grader without looking at the implement and let me know how that goes :D. For sure the “feel” or “intuition” of an experienced operator is certainly an asset… but it doesn’t preclude the need for visibility of the work at hand and of the material being processed.

Have a good one.

Ian


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