Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.

When you register for an account you will see the following message -Due to the amount of "spammers" trying to get on the board all registrations must be approved by me. What this means is that after you register your registration must be authorized. Also your email address has to be verified, you will receive an email with a link YOU MUST CLICK ON THIS LINK TO VERIFY YOUR EMAIL OR YOUR ACCOUNT WILL NOT BE APPROVED. I check the message board several times a day and approve registrations as they come in. Sorry for the wait but it is necessary to keep the spam off the boards.Thanks,Koz It is very important that you click on the link in the email to validate your email. Please check your spam folder as the email message may be sent there by your email provider. IF YOU DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK YOUR ACCOUNT WILL NOT BE APPROVED !!!


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
G2 vs. Ginzu
Topic Started: Mar 16 2008, 09:07 AM (3,612 Views)
arly
Member Avatar
Advanced Operator
[ *  *  * ]
smeurett
Dec 10 2008, 12:43 PM
Dec 9th-

We will be getting a Yamaha Grizzly 700 with power steering and Tatou tracks soon to pull the Ginzu. It'll be outfitted with a 2" reciever hitch, heated grips, windsheiled, tool box and either hard wired for the electric rams or we may try to find a remote box and battery pack for powering the rams.
Please let us know how your Yamaha Grizzly and the Tatou tracks work out for you. Looks like our club is getting pretty serious about a ATV we can equip with tracks and use for year-around trail work. (likely remove the track pods over the summer) Not replacing our sleds, but supplement them when the conditions warrant it. Gee there sure are plenty of company’s making track kits these days!

Attached photo was taken while grooming yesterday.
Attached to this post:
Attachments: grooming_CR_Dec_08.jpg (150.23 KB)
http://keweenawnordic.org/ [/url] keweenawnordicskiclub.blogspot.com [/url]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve.M
Member Avatar
Advanced Operator
[ *  *  * ]
WIll do-I've actually had a quite a few groomer people asking about the tracked atv-just to see how they'll work.

A couple predictions: The 700 Grizzly will have plenty of power for pulling Ginzus and G2s with teeth down.
I'm sure I'll be much colder, even with a windsheild-just ordered a Carhartt extreme arctic coveralls!
Traction and turning should be good-this Grizzly has power steering, I think a very good idea with tracks!
May have to stud the track-sometimes we climb big icy hills.
For now, the tracks will be here in 2 weeks, so I have to go pick it up and get 15 hours on it before they'll let me pull anything-I'm not that fired out about going ATV riding on the snomo trails when it's this cold, but I'll have to get hours on it somehow!

Will report more here as we use it.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
couchsachraga
Advanced Operator
[ *  *  * ]
I know a few folks who help groom at our local Biathlon center (Nationals here this year I've heard!) I believe they ONLY use an ATV now, and refuse to go back to sleds. They groom primarily with a 4' and 6' Tidd (Tenderizer, not G2), and have no problems with traction or steering.

I suspect it is colder than a Skandic, but I'm guessing warmer (if you have the windshield option) than an old Alpine.

Thank you again for your reviews!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve.M
Member Avatar
Advanced Operator
[ *  *  * ]
"an Old Alpine!" Ouch! Just kidding...I have an alpineII here at home for the step-out-the-door-trails.........Love that old beast, although she doesn't always return the favor. Tippy-yep, tiring-yep, but, dang, she has floatation...until she gets stuck. Call the chiropractor!
I'd never retire her (Big Bertha)...she's just too cool.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
couchsachraga
Advanced Operator
[ *  *  * ]
Ah, you have a *new* one. Mine are Alpine I's, a '79 and '86. Amazing floatation and pulling capability. I have them to the point on a packed trail they turn very well (extra skegs and "Dooda's" air shock conversion will help with that...it's unbelievable really), but manage to get hideously stuck on occasion. They are cold, cranky, smelly, and uncomfortable. My biggest complaint is that after half a day of grooming I have no energy left to ski very long! And that somewhat defeats the purpose.

I *almost* sold one and purchased an Alpine II (there are a lot of them for sale around here right now in the sub-1500 range), but opted to stay the course and get a better groomer this year. I have yet to make further progress on my plans, BUT, another center and I did get together with the Trail Plane folks and have come up with a really intriguing retrofit of their current setup for XC. It was great working with folks who have built so many drags (snowmobile), and another fellow who has skied competitively at the international level and helps groom the local biathlon center I referenced earlier.

I'll try to add my thoughts to this post (comparing it to the old steel Ginzu, which is all I've used) when I have a chance to test it out (hoping they'll be done late Jan.).

I hope you get your "tripping" problem solved soon. The chance to put each through their paces side by side for so long must be great! Only thing better would be having to decide whether to take a PB or Bombardier out for the day B)


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve.M
Member Avatar
Advanced Operator
[ *  *  * ]
The Alpine II actually turns pretty well-that fat ski design they changed to is very good. It has two skags on it, and with some body language, I can snake thru the woods trails pulling an older tidd tech pretty well.

What is this "Trail Plane" thing??? Never heard of that.


As for the G2 teeth tripping, maybe we need to move the hitch so the front of the G2 is slightly up as compared to level?

Other than that, there isn't much to adjust since the shock/spring is at it's highest setting. One thing about the tooth bar design is when it trips, the front row of teeth actually swing down and back, cutting deeper! (Sometimes that about stops the Skandic dead!) On the Ginzu, the blades just swing back and up when hitting something.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
couchsachraga
Advanced Operator
[ *  *  * ]
Trail Plane -

http://www.wmlarue-enterprises.com/Main.html . click on Snow Groomers.

I've heard in the snowmobile world they are considered too light and too short by some (others love them), but those two criticisms I think of as positives for XC. I'm having a 60" wide unit built, with two 1' flexible, removable wings. Other modifications include lighter weight, tabs for mounting a track setter, and the addition of snow comb (the snowmobile trail ones are all that are pictured) The blade will have a trip edge to it, and will be controlled by a linear actuator. (lifts the whole frame up, so the weight is on the packing area and the sled only)(it's cheaper if it's manually controlled, but after using both, the extra money to adjust blade depth on the fly is definitely worth it for my trails...and getting stuck less). I'd like to have an actuator for my track pan as well, but I don't think that's affordable right now.

I suspect the G2 and Ginzu will likely perform better, especially in low snow, but a simple design, at less than half the cost (or a third the cost or less, depending on options), I felt it was worth a try. If I could have picked up a used Ginzu (even an old steel one) I likely would have gone that route (the known).
He was willing to work with me on the design I came up with, but there is so much fabrication needed that I can't really afford to pay him to put it together (would end up being more than a Ginzu!). So I'm still refining that, and hope to get a welder over the summer perhaps and start playing on it when I have time (ha!).

On the Ginzu, I agree their knife set up, and how it "drifts" back is ideal. I've had it dig in more than I wanted when it does that, but that's more operator error than anything else. Has Tidd had many other recommendations for getting the tripping to stop? Oh - you (and others) may want to check out the Skandic suspension modification LaRue enterprises has...it's simple, and apparently effective (I don't imagine it helps ride quality much, but then again we don't exactly go that fast grooming anyway).

On the G2 - have you had someone else take a measurement of implement height to see if your hitch is too low (or, as above if it's squatting the machine down some so when pulling it's too low?) In other words, I'm wondering if your sled needs it's suspension tweaked to match whatever the Tidd folks are used to people using. Just a thought, as it seems you've checked almost everything else (must be frustrating).

We're expecting 6-9" of snow today, and roughly the same on Sunday. I really need to get to my trails and groom soon...likely Sunday, during the storm....
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve.M
Member Avatar
Advanced Operator
[ *  *  * ]
Called Tidd Tech yesterday and they suggested checking to see if the rear knife blades hit before the front row does. That is the way it should be set up. There are two carrage bolts that adjust the angle of the blade. If we can get it on cement, we'll check that. Also, the hitch should be slightly above level.

Groomed 6" of nice powder last night with 40# of extra wt. Looked perfect when I finished-no problems pulling thru that amount of snow. The Ginzu was not even a thought with that amount of snow. Hope it all firms up overnight so I have good skiing today.

For those who use a G2, how much extra wt do you use to pack?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
skier2
Advanced Operator
[ *  *  * ]
I usaully leave two 25lb weights on and most i put four 25lbs.

if we get new snow, usualy the 1st day is a little soft for skating, then next day is usually perfect after i groom.
So maybe the ginzu packs a little better, guess really need to have one, since it is a little different.

on the knifes, i have ours in the garage on cement, and they are adjusted level, both touch same time. i guess i could try the other if i have problem.

if i remember next time i'm up at ski place i'll take pix of my springs and hitch setup
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
skier2
Advanced Operator
[ *  *  * ]
couchsachraga

what does the suspention mod do? i bent the springs on the skandic and had to replace them. I have the setting for firm but puts a lot stress on those springs i guess.

bob
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
couchsachraga
Advanced Operator
[ *  *  * ]
http://www.wmlarue-enterprises.com/Main.html

Click on "Snow Groomers" and scroll down to the last images (of the back half of a Skandic). They make it a "solid" suspension, and enable you to remove a few bolts so it's flexible again. I haven't tried it, just heard about it from the fellow that makes it.


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
air19
Advanced Operator
[ *  *  * ]
Regarding the G2 setup. The two adjustments work together - leveling the knives and setting the hitch height. I usually check the knives at the beginning of each snow season and leave them, but I do change the hitch height more often.

I set my knife rows level while they are sitting on the cement floor of my barn. When I have the G2 in the barn I set the G2 frame level (ignoring the hitch for the moment) using some wood blocks or the jack stand (if you have this handy attachment) and then adjust the two bolts to get the knives even. It’s important to adjust the bolts evenly so you keep the separation between the two rows even across the entire width.

This will probably result in the front teeth being slightly lower in actual snow conditions. On the cement floor the tracking discs raise the G2 about two inches off the ground. On the snow, the discs sink in and rear of the G2 will be resting on the comb and the entire G2 will be about two inches lower compared to the barn setup. So on snow the swing arc of the tooth bars will make contact sooner and the front teeth will hit first. I don’t sweat the difference, but just wanted you to be thinking about how it works so you can make your own adjustments to suit your preferences.

For the hitch height I pay more attention and it makes a big difference. I start with the G2 separated from the sled. I have the jack stand up front so I can use this get the G2 frame level. Then I sit on my VK Pro and have a helper measure the height from place on the pintel hitch where the G2 will rest down to ground. This is usually the step that most people don’t get right. They forget to sit on the snowmobile to take into account the “squat factor” based on how soft the rear suspension is. Write this measurement down. It won’t change until you start playing with your suspension. When you do change your suspension, redo this measurement again. Last step I go back to the G2 which still has the frame set level to the ground. I loosen the big hitch bolts, and slide the front of the hitch up or down until it matches my measurement from the snowmobile hitch. Granted I have not completely replicated actual snow conditions where the G2 will sit lower, or taking into account the 40 lb tongue weight of the G2, but I’ve set it pretty close in my barn. Last step I go outside on the snow and see how things really line up, sitting on the VK Pro with the G2 tracking discs in the snow. How level is the G2 frame and how close to level are the two rows of knives hitting the snow.

During the season I give demos of the G2. The best way for me to do this is to drive my VK Pro and have the other groomer sit on the passenger seat facing backwards. That way they get a first hand look at the G2 in action and with my remote control pack can make all the adjustments to the tooth bar and tracksetter. However, when I have another 200 lb groomer sitting on my VK Pro the suspension sags down a bit and it makes a difference if I adjust the hitch height. I usually raise the G2 hitch about an inch, which means I lower the front part of the hitch by that much.

I have also experimented with tracksetting in extreme conditions. I did a demo in New York last year for a group of groomers. It was 42 degrees out in the afternoon and they wanted to see the G2 set track. Not the best of conditions to try and set a firm track. I started by adding more weights on the back, then added the second strut for the tracksetter. Finally I raised the hitch a couple of inches to really keep the back end firmly planted while I was applying a lot of pressure with the tracksetter. The hitch adjustment made all the difference and I got firm track in these crazy conditions.

Bottom line get out on your G2 and play with these adjustments, especially in different conditions and you will get different results.



Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Koz
Member Avatar
Site Administrator
[ *  *  * ]
Here's a pic of their mod

Posted Image
Ilion Snowdrifters
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve.M
Member Avatar
Advanced Operator
[ *  *  * ]
So, air19, have you had an issue with the knife bar tripping a lot? I assume no. We'll try the measurements you suggested here-thanks a ton! One of those carriage bots did get bent down that adjust the tooth bar, so we need to replace that before we make the adjustments. Ours came with 2 20# wts, so we've used taht mostly, but it does seem like it needs more wt to really get a firm base.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
air19
Advanced Operator
[ *  *  * ]
The knives have only tripped during the usual catching of all the tree stumps in my trails during low snow conditions. Or when I have them set too deep and then it's a good reminder that I'm trying to renovate too much snow.

Now in early season snow I actually keep the knives above the surface because I'm only worried about smoothing the trails by knocking the high spots down. I have lots of water bars on my trails so I need to fill them in first.

After about six good grooming passes then I'll lower them so they are about 1/2" in the snow. I have never needed to go farther than that.

My ski touring center has 90% classical skiers so I'm not trying to get as firmly a compacted snow surface as many other places that now are getting almost a majority of skaters. So with my crowd I've never needed weights. All depends on what type of trail surface you are trying to set up. I have talked to groomers in Wisconsin and Minnesota, I went to the ABR groomers clinic one year and with their skaters, many of them are running about 50 lbs. on the back of their G2s.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Cross Country Talk · Next Topic »
Add Reply


Find more great themes at the IFSZ