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Two vs. Four track mahine
Topic Started: Feb 8 2007, 12:55 PM (3,167 Views)
flyingcow
Advanced Operator
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Ok I haven't got as much experience as I would like. We are not in the mtns, but
we do have some decent climbs. Located in northern maine. We've gone from an old bombi, track truck, 60hp gilbert. Now we got a ts110 and a tm 140 suretracs. The reason we went with the tractors is low maintenance, great visibility, etc. We looked
briefly at tuckers. Too pricey and way too much maintenance. Blades are hooked to the front end? Whats up with that? Off trail? I'm sure they do well. I generally try to stay on the trail. I will agree with the earlier post that the gilbert will go thru snow! Put a 9x24ft drag behind a tucker and one behind a gilbert and head for the deep snow. My guess, it would be an even race. You give our tm140 suretrac to an operator on HCS named "Groomer", (he grooms in the Gaspe region) and I'll put my money on the Canadian any day. I need to go up there and learn how to groom like him! :jump: He'd probably hook a chain onto the tucker and pull you along for the ride. ------- Comparing 2 track and 4tracks is a hard thing to define. Way too many variations as "grooming snow" pointed out. The tractor setups that we've used are a pain to go without the drag. thats where the tuckers, bombis, PB's work well!---- With all that said, we're expecting 12 to 24 inched with some sleet mixed in :jump: 30/40mph winds and hopefully I'll be in it fri am. We like to let in settle, makes a better trail. The one thing I do know is, its what you pull , not what you pull it with. And yes if you think I'm full of sh!t, I can only agree! :scool:
As I pointed out before, I haven't got as much experience as I would like to have
and don't have as much as most guys on this board. :bow: And anyone one of 'em will kick my azz on the trail :myopinon:
Equipment used - Suretrac TS-110 and TM-140

www.benedictasnowgang.com
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flyingcow
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Oh yeah by the way, I haven't got the nads to go groom a mountain. Those guys are some serious (also certifiable wacked!) operators :bow: :letsnow:
Equipment used - Suretrac TS-110 and TM-140

www.benedictasnowgang.com
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RJ85MSP
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That's why they groom mostly at night. You don't want to see what's just to the outside of the tracks, sometimes there's nothing!

When I did some grooming out there I was flat out impressed and it was an expierence I'll get back to some day. It make anything east of the Mississippi look like childs play.

Tuckers too much maintenance? Again, Terra's were talking, not the steel cleats and greaseable wheels of the 80's and 90's.

Visibility. Folks, do you ever hear semi drivers complain about visibility and use that to not buy a piece of equipment? Not really, the mirrors do just as good of job and keep your head pointed forward because that is where you are headed.

As for the blade, where would you like to attach it to when you have a front track system that turns? Remember it isn't a dozer blade (even those guys call it quits in the winter for a reason) It's meant to move snow, take care of berms and moguls. Not remove tree stumps at 10mph. Personally I like seeing the blade and the front corners of the equipment when I'm driving, not sitting back a 1/2 block from the front and 3 stories in the air.

To each there own I guess.

I just got to ask?
In a tractor, where does the second person sit if you so happen to have one with? I know the PB, BR, and Tucker riders are comfortable, how about we hear from some riders from the tractor crowd. Is it truly like riding in a side car, or a dog house? :floor: :shrug: :myopinon:
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Drsparky
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Wow, I never thought I would hear someone brag that their groomer visibility was just as good a Peterbuilt.

Life is to short to drink cheap beer.
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groomerguyNWO
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Personally, I don't think one's better than the other. Some guys like a four track system and others like a two trak system. I think they each have their good points and bad points. I run both types. A Lamtrac and a BR160. I can see advantages and disadvantages of each. I will say one thing though. I'm sure glad I was out in the Lamtrac last week when I ripped a track off of the machine and not the BR160. It's allot easier to get a Lamtrac home on 3 tracks when you throw a track than it would be will a BR on only one track. Also, when crossing a beaver dam a couple of years ago the back end of the groomer broke through the ice. Water was half way up the engine compartment. The front end was up on the dam. That Lamtrac surprised the hell outa me when it crawled right out of there with a little wiggling. THere's no way in hell that BR160 or any other two track machine for that matter would have crawled out like that on it's own. So, each has it's good point and bad points. :my2c:
.........takin it one mogul at a time

http://trailgrooming.wetpaint.com/

http://snowmobiling.greenstone.ca/

Brian
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Ebert
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Ooooooh RJ85MSP… :P (what does your “handle” signify, anyways?)

I guess it all depends on what you are doing on the trails in the first place.

Visibility?... did you mention visibility??? Then I gotta ask you… what are you doing out on the trail in the first place? …it’s either … A: going for a nice drive, or… B: building a road for snowmobiles.

Yes folks, that is THE prime directive of a groomer operator… to re-establish a smooth surface for the paying customer, the sledder. Grooming a trail is absolutely the same process as grading the washboard out of a gravel road. No difference. You can simply “hide” the bumps, in which case they WILL return very quickly with subsequent sleds, or, you can WORK the equipment provided in order to perform the job at hand... and this is not as easy as some think. I say WORK because that’s what it is. An operator needs to constantly be aware of what he is doing, react to the ever changing parameters of his environment (temperature, mogul depth, travel speed, trail situation, time of day, ETC). Quite simply, if he can’t see his implement working, how can he perform his job??? (the semi-driver analogy is indeed perfect... perfect for a"driver" that is... more concerned with the road ahead than what's behind :rolleyes: )

Have you ever sat in a tractor? 360 degree visibility… designed for exactly that purpose – for the operator to survey the work going on behind him. Uh, by the way, it IS the drag performing all the work right? It should be. SO… if you can’t see the drag, then you are only “driving” the groomer. In that case yes, mirrors will suffice. And please don’t tell me you are able to watch cutting depth and snow flow through the drag via the mirrors, because you can’t.

There IS a difference between a driver and an operator, in ANY heavy equipment application, not just snowmobile trail grooming.

I agree with you on the blade not being a bulldozer. It’s meant for snow duties only.

What about the passenger seat, you ask??? Again, I remind you of what it is an operator is SUPPOSED to be doing out there… he is supposed to be working. No different than a grader operator. Or a bulldozer operator. Or an excavator operator. Or a farmer. ALL of these applications require the operator’s full attention to perform a very important task. Not to mention the fact that the operator is in charge of a piece of industrial equipment worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, operating in less than ideal conditions. Not really any time for chit chat, and certainly no time for socializing. No siree, grooming is not a social event. It is a serious and professional job. At least it SHOULD be, as the success of a club, perhaps many small businesses, in fact often a whole community is at stake when we’re talking snowmobile trails and tourism. At least up here anyways.

Having said that, training is a very important aspect, and yes it IS important to have the capability to comfortably seat a passenger. OK, maybe even the odd time bring someone with you to just to see what grooming is all about, or whatever. You’ll notice in the following photos a tractor certainly has that capability covered quite adequately. The first photo below is of a factory “training seat” in a New Holland TSA tractor… not bad at all. The second photo is of a Sur-Trac “Passenger Door” option, which IS in fact comfortable enough to take a passenger on loooong trips. Comfortable enough that the passenger can easily fall asleep in it.

Once again my friend, none of this is intended to be malicious (how can it be, happy as I am having just downed a few gin & tonics in rapid succession!). :D :P

Peace out.

Ian

TSA training seat:
Posted Image

Sur-Trac Passenger Door (Hey! don't knock it until you've tried it! ...it's quite roomy and comfortable!)
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It's big & it's blue & it's coming for you!
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stevep
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This is my answer to the tractor seating. I used to think the same thing because I don't feel comfotable grooming late at night by my self. But a couple of years ago I met a tractor groomer out on the trail and he had his very nice looking girlfriend with him. After seeing that it doesn't matter how crowded you are its all good. By the way our club likes Tuckers but before that we had alpines ,skandic, and a bombi. I have never had a chance to use a tractor conversion but if Ira wants to leave one for me to wear out I would do my best.
Evergreen Valley Snowmobile Club
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Ebert
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Oh yea RJ85MSP… I forgot to address your front blade visibility comment… you obviously have never driven a Sur-Trac (sitting 1/2 block from the front?... a little dramatic are we? :rolleyes: ). Actually since you are sitting in the CENTER of the unit (not the far left side, which by the way, I personally find totally limits one's judgement as to clearance on the right side of the unit in the bushes) anyways sitting in the center you can EASILY see both corners of the front blade, the tracks, AND the cab clearance. Sweet. And by the way, sitting “3 stories high” is a HUGE advantage when looking down INTO the drag… where all the work is happening anyways… remember? :P

Seeya.

Ian
It's big & it's blue & it's coming for you!
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groomerguyNWO
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We've had a tucker before..............mechanical nightmare. Sure, the parts are readily available but, if the machine is broke half of the time, the you're not out on the trail using it for what it was intended........to groom trails. We were heisitant to buy a Lamtrac at first and didn't want to venture into a machine with Hydrostatic drives which are very costly to repair. We preffered a four track machine which is why we bought our first Lamtrac. Machinewise, we can't complain one bit. It's been a good machine..........never left us out on the trail except for when the first one broke through a creek meeting its maker in the sky.
.........takin it one mogul at a time

http://trailgrooming.wetpaint.com/

http://snowmobiling.greenstone.ca/

Brian
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RJ85MSP
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First off do some of you know the difference when talking about Tucker? There is two different models with two totally different charestics. Terra and Sno-Cat. I'm strictly Terra talk.

The visibility thing is such a non issue. On a terra you can see all the cutting blades no matter what snow condition you have or how fast you are going. I groom around 9-13 mph and never once thought, wow, I need to see more out the back of this thing. I don't/can't use my rear view mirror in my daily driver so why would I need to see out the back of a Tucker or any other piece of equipment? Except the occasional hooking up of a drag. Mirrors were developed to make everyone's job easier. I prefer to work smarter, not harder, and turning around and moving your head constantly is simply a waste of energy.

I agree a center position for seating is better. That we agree on. Having a snout a 1/2 block in front of you is just plain wrong. If that was so beneficial wouldn't PB and BR put the engines in front?

Enough said on this subject since it's plain :myopinon: anyways. Our club has had Bombi's, we have tested PB's, Gilberts, and looked at Mattracks, and even drove a New Holland around a bit and out of 300 members, each time it all boiled down to what does a better "overall" job. Which includes maintenance, initail cost, TRADE IN VALUE, parts availbility, servicability when things go wrong, operator comfort, and time it takes to become efficient/profiecent with the job at hand. Remember most clubs in the states are all volunteer so training Tom, Dick and Harry becomes a huge effort of time. It's American made! keeping Americans employeed, and the way it pulls a drag, basically the way it does everything you need it to do.
Everything else is :cens:

Good day.
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Grooming-snow
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B) I see Ian has made a new friend :scool: Can I play TOO!!
TRADE IN VALUE !! Hope they stay high, may have a couple coming in!!
Click Here For My ((Webpage)))http://www.snowcountrygroomers.com
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groomerguyNWO
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We've got no real complaints about tucker's. We had one. At the time we were looking at a new machine for our club, everyone was just so :cens: at our Tucker and we have come to realize it's not the machine's fault to most of our problems. We have one trail which was cut in the winter time in about 4 ft of snow. The guys who cut the trail left stumps and twigs sticking up about 2 ft in the air. We replaced the tracks on our tucker with some aftermarket tracks which we got at a good price. Well, as the saying goes.....when a deal seems too good to be true, it probably is. Those tracks would rip everytime we tried to go over a twig the size of a finger. We cursed that thing and know it wasn't the machines fault. Our last Lamtrac was totalled by the insurance after it sank in a creek. We looked around to see what used machines were out there. We looked at a couple of tuckers. I'm sorry, but when we can buy a 2002 Lamtrac for $21,000 that only has 2300hrs, why would we even look at a mid 90's BR or tucker for 80-100,000.(and they all had 35-4500hrs.
.........takin it one mogul at a time

http://trailgrooming.wetpaint.com/

http://snowmobiling.greenstone.ca/

Brian
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groomerguyNWO
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How's this one for a two track machine............good visability all around, very spacious interior.........gets the job done! It's even centralized seating! :P

Posted Image

:floor:
.........takin it one mogul at a time

http://trailgrooming.wetpaint.com/

http://snowmobiling.greenstone.ca/

Brian
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groomerguyNWO
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For those who don't think a four track system can climb in the deep snow.....

Posted Image
.........takin it one mogul at a time

http://trailgrooming.wetpaint.com/

http://snowmobiling.greenstone.ca/

Brian
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groomerguyNWO
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Posted Image

Here's another one
.........takin it one mogul at a time

http://trailgrooming.wetpaint.com/

http://snowmobiling.greenstone.ca/

Brian
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