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| Two vs. Four track mahine | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 8 2007, 12:55 PM (3,166 Views) | |
| groomerguyNWO | Feb 8 2007, 12:55 PM Post #1 |
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I'm sure this has probably been debated on this site but what's everyone's opionion. What's the better machine? A two track system(br180,pisten bully, sur- trac etc...) or a four track system(tucker, lamtrac.......) Just curious as to what the strengths and weaknesses are of each type of machine.
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.........takin it one mogul at a time http://trailgrooming.wetpaint.com/ http://snowmobiling.greenstone.ca/ Brian | |
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| Nuggs | Feb 8 2007, 01:27 PM Post #2 |
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Leave it smoooth!
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Not being that experienced in this field, I am going to reply using my knowledge of physics but in general I think it must surely depend on the terrain and type of work to be done. Surely some of the heavy snow works moving large quantities of snow or movements on steep inclines require the two track system. Ive seen photos of PB's in positions and situations that I would be very surprised to see a four track in. In my mind this is because of the maneouvrability and weight issue rather than traction. However, I see four track systems being used for forest trails etc and believe they may be better suited in this environment in terms of compaction. Im sure some of you experts may shoot me down but Im keen to see if I'm right..
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| Bring on more European experience! | |
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| Deleted User | Feb 8 2007, 01:51 PM Post #3 |
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I would go with 2 track systems all around. Many different reasons: better for stability less compaction then a four track machine wider tracks mean more surface area for climbing turning radious (within itself some machines) More power/traction for moving large amounts of snow same as above for pulling power Down side of two tracked vehicles: Have to remove tracks blade for moving To wide for alot of trails When turning they tend to tear up the ground/snow Need to have different tracks for summer Vs. Winter (if you use your machine in the summer that is) |
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| Drsparky | Feb 8 2007, 04:57 PM Post #4 |
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1. I like 2 tracks for the flotation. In a good year we have a lot of snow and flotation is very important. 2. Two tracks also seem to have a lower center of gravity, great for hills. 3. Two tracks with ram steer (Gilbert, Shur-trac types) can back up for miles, try that with a pintle hitch.
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Life is to short to drink cheap beer. | |
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| melensdad | Feb 11 2007, 03:13 PM Post #5 |
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I don't think the question is as simple as 2 track versus 4 track. You guys have more experience than I do driving, but I am a restoration hobbiest who studies and plays with different machines just to satisfy my curiosity. There are points made here that 4 track machines compact the ground/snow more, but that is not always true as some of the 4 track models are available with very wide tracks. So a wide track 4 track machine would not compact any more than a 2 track wide track (as measured in psi of ground pressure). In terms of climbing, again it really is not a 2 track versus 4 track issue, it is a specific machine verus specific other machine issue. Some are simply able to climb better than others. Did anyone attend the Saftey One Snowcat Shoot Out in January? Some 4 track machines climbed, some 2 track machines climbed, some did not. Climbing is a function of HP and the ability of the driveline to effeciently put that HP to the ground. Very low HP machines can climb some amazing slopes because of their drive design, and some drive systems are very inefficient and require substantial horsepower to achieve modest results in climbing. From what I can tell almost nothing can out climb a Snow Master, which is a wide track 2 track machine with only a 54hp engine. As for 2 tracks turning tighter, again that is dependant upon the design. A 2 track brake steer machine is not going to turn inside itself and will turn roughly at a similar diameter as some 4 tracks but will tear up the ground more than the 4 track. Its not as clear as 2 vs 4. I tend to think it is specific design vs specific design.
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![]() Visit my antique snowcat pages for restoration of Aktiv Snow Trac, Kristi, Thiokol, Tucker & other old brands! St Gabriel Possenti Patron Saint of Handgunners | |
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| Grooming-snow | Feb 11 2007, 09:37 PM Post #6 |
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It depends on what your going to use it for ! Twin track LMC-PB-BR's work great on ski hills when used with a tiller , you can turn on a dime.
Now use the same machine on snowmobile trails with hills, with switch backs pulling a 8'x 20' drag. One track pulling and the other just sitting there . Oh you can use the winch , but that gets old. Now same machine with a ram steer drag. 4 Tracked machines, put long & wide tracks with deep metal cleats & you will get a machine that will take you in to the back country with deep snow & could be used on shi hills . Same machine won't do very well on snow mobile trails. So it all about having the right machine for what you plan on doing , there is no one size fits all machine |
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| flyingcow | Feb 11 2007, 10:02 PM Post #7 |
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Yeah what he said! |
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Equipment used - Suretrac TS-110 and TM-140 www.benedictasnowgang.com | |
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| RJ85MSP | Feb 14 2007, 11:11 AM Post #8 |
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Plain and simple, if you are pulling a big drag through the woods up and down hills, and on icy terrain there is only one choice. Tucker Terras. Not because I work with them, but just because in the 16+ years of operating grooming vehicles, and yes I have tried 90% of what is out there, the Tuckers do a far superior job. The PB's and BR's will push more snow, but not pull as heavy of a drag that is fact! The tractors, yeah, whatever. As long as there is no more the 4" of snow the tractors will look good. Put them anywhere near deep snow, swamps, or ditches and you will soon realize they aren't made for snow grooming applications. Tractors are made for summer in the field. Nothing more. Go to one of the grooming shows and give them all a try on "real" trails with real drags in real world conditions. Driving them in a parking lot just don't show anyone anything. |
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| mtntopper | Feb 14 2007, 11:30 AM Post #9 |
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Do you stand by this statement when talking about the 12 foot wide drags and large 12 foot wide BR's and PB's pulling the drags on wide trails? I think there is a place for both types of equipment. One maybe better in some places and applications but does not work as well as the other in a different setting. The Tucker Terra overall is a great machine but it does not fit for all locations and trail requirements. |
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My1200 LMC | |
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| kopeck | Feb 14 2007, 11:51 AM Post #10 |
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I'm guessing your talking about using tractors with tires here, not conversions. I've seen some 2 track conversions go through some serious snow. Really the best trails I've ever ridden on were groomed with nothing but converted tractors. That being said I don't think they would work as well on my clubs system (we're not called Hill and Gully for nothing!). Each has it's best application, simply saying that the Tucker is the best hands down is a little silly IMHO. Nothing against Tuckers either, I would die to get my hands one one. K |
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| RJ85MSP | Feb 14 2007, 12:21 PM Post #11 |
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I'm going of my operating expierence on snowmobile trails that go through woods, up and down hills all with ice underneath and even a little rocky mountain expierence. For snowmobile trail grooming I'm relating to the trail bully, br180 and the tuckers along with the new hollands and sure tracs and so on. Stuff that is marketed toward snowmobile clubs, not ski hill vehicles doing the sled trails. Those are just in a class by themselves. |
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| Sno_Twister | Feb 14 2007, 02:03 PM Post #12 |
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Can't really say much about anything but our tractor conversions. We have a Marcel, and so does a neighboring club, along with a few Sur-Tracs. These units do a real nice job with a decent base, don't go off the packed trail, you will get stuck. Our John Deere Gilbert conversion on the other hand has been unstoppable. I hope to hell I never see the day it gets stuck, we will have to wait till spring. The Marcel and Sur-Trac machines do a fine job making one of the hardest trails out there, the Gilbert does almost as well, plus this thing is a climbing machine. The past 2 weeks around here we have had the snow coming over the hood of the Gilbert going thru some drifted areas, one club even had to break trail for a neighboring club with a Sur-Trac. The downside to the Gilberts is if you have to do any lengthy road runs, they use a hyfax, like a sled and this will wear fast on the road. |
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| Ebert | Feb 14 2007, 02:13 PM Post #13 |
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Hi there RJ85MSP Allow me to introduce myself… my name is Ian Auger, I’m with Ebert Welding, who manufacture and sell Sur-Trac groomers which are based around a New Holland farm tractor. I have absolutely no desire to get into a pissing match with you or anyone else here. Take what I say here with a “grain of salt”, like we’re sitting around havin’ beers (which I hope we’ll do together at some point in time)… a bit of good natured ribbing, if you will. So then…A blanket statement like “Tuckers do a far superior job” is fairly brazen, might I add a little pretentious. I would suggest that your 16 years of experience in the grooming industry is likely quite different than my 18 years (or whatever it is by now), which is probably quite different than the other seasoned veterans on this board like Flyingcow, Don McMurchy, Groomerbob, etc etc… Funny how these and many other seasoned veterans have been developing and maintaining very serious snowmobile trail networks over quite challenging terrain with plenty of winter precipitation for many years now, quite successfully… and some of these poor organizations are doing so without any Tuckers in their fleet at all! How the heck can that be?? What you said somehow mysteriously defies what has been happening up here in Ontario, which I might add is considered a pretty serious contender for world-class trail networks, snow levels, as well as geographical challenges. Would you believe, in the last 15 years I would venture a guess that approximately only 6 – 8 new Tuckers have been sold up here? (you can check that with the Shop Industrial if you like – great bunch of guys as you no doubt know.) In fact, would you believe the top selling groomer in Ontario for several years running now, has been the “lowly” Sur-Trac groomer? And since the early 90's there were even FEWER Tuckers sold in Québec ,who are also heavyweights on the snowmobile scene. How about the Michigan Upper Peninsula? Would you agree that this could be considered one of the USA’s top snowmobile destinations, with massive quantities of snow precipitation (ever see that thermometer board-thing, where is it… Calumet? Showing 30+ft of annual precipitation?) as well as quite challenging terrain along the rugged shores of Superior? Hmmmm… seems that over the last 9 years some of the larger organizations there have made a switch from Tuckers to… oh my… Sur-Trac tractor conversions! Taquamehenon Trails, Baraga, Keweenaw Trails, Superior Greenland, Gogebic Range… basically I’d venture a guess at 50% of the UP are now using Sur-Trac groomers. And these organizations are not just “experimenting”… they have all completely converted their fleets to Sur-Trac. You can bet they wouldn't do that if it didn't work for them! So basically, as has been pointed out many times by many people… there are several types of groomer out there. They each have their areas of excellence. Not ONE is “the best” at everything. In fact “the best” operation of ANY groomer is usually determined by the dude behind the steering wheel. I can tell you umpteen stories of how I made it up <<hills, corners, ditches, blah-blah etc-etc>> and left a <<Tucker, PB, Bomb, Lamtrac, blah-blah etc-etc>> “in the dust”. And I’ll bet that you have your fair share of stories as well, as do those operating other brands. So any debate in this area basically becomes a pissing match. Which is of no use to anyone. In my opinion, us “sales weasels” should participate in these forums very carefully, exercise common courtesy to each other, and leave the blatant sales pitches for the one-on-one times with potential customers. So, considering the fact that Koz’s forum is filled with so many seasoned grooming veterans, you might want to nix the boastful rhetoric. You’re not really impressing anyone. Just sayin’, is all I’m saying. Peace out. Ian PS… Hey man, it’s all cool… I’m not being confrontational here… it’s just that one of my nasty little character habits is to vehemently defend/clarify any statements which I believe to be untrue or over-the-top in such a way as to affect me. And believe you me; I can put my money where my mouth is. |
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| mtntopper | Feb 14 2007, 03:48 PM Post #14 |
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Here in the Rocky Mountains, we have extreme steep and deep conditions to contend with in most areas. The ski hill cats are the "king of the trail" groomers in the west. Many clubs and state trails organizations use them extensively. Below is a pic of my son in laws club groomer near Aspen Colorado. Your Tucker would do the trails, but it would not be near as efficient as the Prinoth, Pisten Bully or large Bombardier. Yes they also use a tiller, not my choice, but it works well with their trail system of steep, deep and sharp turns. ![]() ![]() |
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My1200 LMC | |
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| RJ85MSP | Feb 14 2007, 04:28 PM Post #15 |
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Come on your making me jealous with that pic of the prinoth. As for the Sur Trac and any other competition. Remember I'm talking Tucker "Terra's" here. Name me the clubs that full fleet switched from what was an exclusive Tucker Terra club to anything else? Not just adding something else, full fledged fleet change from top to bottom? Just the club names, that's all. |
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It depends on what your going to use it for ! Twin track LMC-PB-BR's work great on ski hills when used with a tiller , you can turn on a dime.
Now use the same machine on snowmobile trails with hills, with switch backs pulling a 8'x 20' drag. One track pulling and the other just sitting there . Oh you can use the winch , but that gets old.


3:08 PM Jul 11