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SIx Nations 2013
Topic Started: Sunday, 3. February 2013, 20:15 (1,186 Views)
Hendo
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Cracking start to this years tournament. 149 points scored and a hatful of tries; lets hope they keep it up cos recent tournaments have been a bit disappointing.

Have to say that I thought all 3 refs - Rolland, Owens and Poite - had excellent games an the whole and helped contribute to the spectacle :tu:
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RCG
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A very accurate assessment there Hendo- have to say I thoroughly enjoyed watching all 3 games. Ireland v Wales was a definite game of two halves, refereed well by Poite (who has had his critics). I thought he was consistent throughout and only reached for the yellow card when Ireland came under tremendous pressure and had to concede penalties.
Rolland at Twickenham I thought was back to his best. He had a really good feel for the game and was also very consistent in his penalties.
I am a fan of Owens (although I know some aren't) but you know exactly where you stand with him. Was really good to see Italy hang on having played the much better rugby for the opening 20 minutes.
Wales, I am afraid, may feel the French backlash and Scotland will face a daunting task against the rampant Italians. As for England's trip to Dublin I think that is just too close to call
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reflector
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I do agree with that. A good start refereeingwise and I think Owens improves with every game and can't be too far off the number one spot. Certainly from what I have seen so far, there is no need to use Southern Hemisphere refs for the Six Nations as those from the NH are more than capable.
reflector
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RCG
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Weekend 2- not quite the sparkling weekend of last, I think the weather and pitch conditions did not help. Good wins for the Reds, Whites and Blues.

Onto the referees. Little Jaco Peyper (who loved that rascal Puff) showed a little naivety with his position, culminating in being hit by the ball. His decision making seemed fairly decent, communication was good and in the end Scotland's dominance helped the game go off without too many issues.

George Clancy in Paris. When he arrived on the scene of International Referees I thought he was decent. Recently I am tending to agree with the majority of others and think he has lost his way. 2 crucial decisions penalising the attacking side at scrum time seemed to highlight the lottery of some of his decision making - just not convinced by him at all

Jerome Garces in Dublin. I'm afraid he looked like a rabbit in the headlights, never really in control, his constant emploring 'discipline' seemed to go unheeded. It would definitely concern me if we had him against any of the Southern Hemisphere sides as he looks like he could be blown over by a strong breeze let alone by a Kiwi or Aussie pack in full flow.

Disappointing weekend generally for the referees, certainly not up to last weekend's trio. Roll on Poite, Joubert and Barnes in a fortnight's time
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Hendo
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RCG
Sunday, 10. February 2013, 18:02
Weekend 2- not quite the sparkling weekend of last, I think the weather and pitch conditions did not help. Good wins for the Reds, Whites and Blues.

Onto the referees. Little Jaco Peyper (who loved that rascal Puff) showed a little naivety with his position, culminating in being hit by the ball. His decision making seemed fairly decent, communication was good and in the end Scotland's dominance helped the game go off without too many issues.

George Clancy in Paris. When he arrived on the scene of International Referees I thought he was decent. Recently I am tending to agree with the majority of others and think he has lost his way. 2 crucial decisions penalising the attacking side at scrum time seemed to highlight the lottery of some of his decision making - just not convinced by him at all

Jerome Garces in Dublin. I'm afraid he looked like a rabbit in the headlights, never really in control, his constant emploring 'discipline' seemed to go unheeded. It would definitely concern me if we had him against any of the Southern Hemisphere sides as he looks like he could be blown over by a strong breeze let alone by a Kiwi or Aussie pack in full flow.

Disappointing weekend generally for the referees, certainly not up to last weekend's trio. Roll on Poite, Joubert and Barnes in a fortnight's time
Didn't see the Scotland game so will go with you RCG. Your comments seem to echo those which others passed on Glen Jacksons debut in the Enland v FiJi game before Christmas; essentially not bad just a bit naive positionally. Experience will surely help both in the longer term (loved the reference to Puff the Magic Dragon by the way - lol)

Clancy - as folk to this site will testify I have never been convinced and can't see what those in authority see in him and yet he seems to have overtaken Rolland as Ireland's no 1, heavens knows why. Another total random performance as you say, with little feel for the game or empathy with the players. What worries me is that, if this is a year in which no Irish side get to the Heineken Final, then Clancy will get the nod over Rolland for the Final. You saw it here first folks!

Garces - mustn't admit I like this ref and feel he could challenge Poite as Frances top man but it wasn't his best today, nothing major, just didn't seem to have the lid on things as you say
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Mackem ref
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Only caught glimpses of the England game (probably just as we'll if it was as dull as my parents said!!), but though Garces needed to be stronger. He mentioned discipline but then did nothing more when the discipline was lost again.

For me, I still think Owens is the best referee in the World at the moment, and don't see too many others challenging him at present.
Life's a bitch, and then you die
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RCG
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Looking forward to seeing Joubert as I think he has always been excellent when doing all European internationals. Poite did well in his first game so hopefully he will continue in that vain. Wayne Barnes I have always liked (I know some dont). I trust he will continue his international comeback
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Hendo
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RCG
Sunday, 10. February 2013, 22:12
Looking forward to seeing Joubert as I think he has always been excellent when doing all European internationals. Poite did well in his first game so hopefully he will continue in that vain. Wayne Barnes I have always liked (I know some dont). I trust he will continue his international comeback
Agreed.

Joubert always seems to me to be a very calm and laid back ref who didn't have the best of games in the WC final it has to be said but we all have off days.

BArnes has a certain aura of arrogance about him, coupled with a rather plummy accent, which I think does not go down too well with some but on his day is a top ref who stands no nonsense. There is a YouTube clip where he sends off Joe Marlar - complete with red Mohican hair - and some other guy for scrapping and it's quite clear who is in charge! :red:
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RCG
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I was going to leave any comment until after all this weekend's matches were played but will review Mr Barnes' performance separately.

Firstly in horrible conditions in Rome I thought Mr Poite was good enough - no histrionics, had warned the Italian front row before the deliberate collapse of the scrum so off Castrogiavani went. Wales were lucky with the bounce of the ball a couple of times but that wasn't anything to do with the referee's handling of the game. At no point did I notice any glaring errors, sometimes a judgement call went one way rather than the other but that's sport. Poite continues to do well in my book.

As for WC final referee Joubert I think its fair to say it wasn't a good day at the office. The management of the scrum was appalling, taking too long to get through the calls ensuring that virtually every scrum resulted in a free kick or penalty. Handling by both sides was poor which led to the high number of scrums - this is an area I know the IRB are looking at, the sooner the better. As for the defining/critical moment I cannot believe that one of the 3 officials has not seen the kick forward hit the England player, putting him in an offside position. If that had happened against England we would all be up in arms so I do feel for the French (although why Saint Andre took off his best performing players so early in the 2nd half will be for him to explain). When we have had Joubert before I have always felt he makes decisions that are expected so got little complaint - yesterday appeared the total opposite of that. I trust, for his sake, it was a one-off
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Hendo
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RCG
Sunday, 24. February 2013, 13:24
I was going to leave any comment until after all this weekend's matches were played but will review Mr Barnes' performance separately.

Firstly in horrible conditions in Rome I thought Mr Poite was good enough - no histrionics, had warned the Italian front row before the deliberate collapse of the scrum so off Castrogiavani went. Wales were lucky with the bounce of the ball a couple of times but that wasn't anything to do with the referee's handling of the game. At no point did I notice any glaring errors, sometimes a judgement call went one way rather than the other but that's sport. Poite continues to do well in my book.

As for WC final referee Joubert I think its fair to say it wasn't a good day at the office. The management of the scrum was appalling, taking too long to get through the calls ensuring that virtually every scrum resulted in a free kick or penalty. Handling by both sides was poor which led to the high number of scrums - this is an area I know the IRB are looking at, the sooner the better. As for the defining/critical moment I cannot believe that one of the 3 officials has not seen the kick forward hit the England player, putting him in an offside position. If that had happened against England we would all be up in arms so I do feel for the French (although why Saint Andre took off his best performing players so early in the 2nd half will be for him to explain). When we have had Joubert before I have always felt he makes decisions that are expected so got little complaint - yesterday appeared the total opposite of that. I trust, for his sake, it was a one-off
Excellent assessment RCG, cant really quibble with anything here.Must admit to having doubts about Poite to begin with but he is certainly having a strong run at present.

Agree about Joubert - the scrum was a disgrace and he never got on top of it. He has a very laid back style, which I feel at times works for him, but didnt get to grips with things yesterday IMHO.

Didnt see all the Scotland v Ireland game but, of the bits I did, Barnes seemed to do ok; he just has a rather public schoolmater aire about him, which I suspect rankels with a few players.

The next round of games sees Joubert in charge of Scotland v Wales (so lets hope he has a better game than yesterday), New Zealander/Aussie Steve Walsh (aaarrghh!) with Ireland v France and George bloody Clancy (aaarrghh again!) i/c of England v Italy. Methinks it will be a weekend which will not pass quietly or without controversy!
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RCG
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Barnes did do ok. Yellow card appeared soft by virtue of so little contact being made BUT the player did try and block the quick run. Was surprised that no yellow was produced for tackling player in the air. Otherwise, sound, competent performance.

How Ireland ever lost that game I will never know? What money a decent kicker in international rugby!
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Hendo
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Well, what to make of today?

Thought Joubert was poor in the first game, on the back of a less than satisfactory display in the England v France game last time around. Admittedly the conditions were not good and the attitude of the players didnt help but his decision making, especially at the scrum, seemed random and there was more than one occasion where he looked lost for want of a better word. Have to say there were a couple of occasions too where the touch judges could have helped him more but seemed oblivious or reticent.

Not sure what to make of Joubert to be honest. On his day he is good, relaxed andon his game but he does have some bad ones. Clearly impressed at the last WC with going there as SA's no. 2 to Kaplan and ending up with a quarter, semi and the Final itself (in which he was poor too I have to say). Will be interesting to see what games and how many he gets when the summer international fixtures are released, given the IRB's drive to give games to the best performing refs on merit at the time.

As a Steve Walsh criticiser I was expecting similar in the other game but have to say I was pleasantly surprised. Again the awful weather didnt help but Walsh seemed to me to have a much better feel for the conditions and therefore a more sympathetic approach. Unlike Joubert he seemed to communicate much earlier and therefore much better with the players, especially when the scrum became messy. The odd decision I would question but overall thought he did well and helped the game.

Interesting that the penalty count of 14 was half that of the Scotland v Wales game, where I said earlier Joubert seemed to give pens at random (and lots of them too!). Says a lot I feel

Its Clancy tomorrow - aarrgghh! :'(
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reflector
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Excellent summing up by Hendo but why on earth do we have to have Southern Hemisphere refs for the six nations? Mind you, with Clancy coming up this afternoon, I might just want to delete that comment later on.
reflector
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I had the England match on in the background today, so can anyone tell me what Nigel Owens said after the completely incorrect award of a knock on??
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RCG
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I concur with Reflector about Hendo's excellent summing up of yesterday's games. Joubert seems incapable of refereeing scrappy games well. The penalty count reflects poor decision making by players but also a remarkable tolerance level from CJ. Yellow cards should have been quicker and in more of an abundance.

Walsh did well in Dublin. I was slightly concerned about one or two of his decisions around scrum time but that's rugby at the moment.

Clancy today has been average (although probably slightly better than England). In regards to the 'knock forward' Clancy was reluctant to listen to Nigel Owens, whose interpretation was spot on. Clancy definitely penalised Italy more in the first half as England were on the front foot. Still not convinced I'd want GC refereeing vital games at any level.

On the point of Southern Hemisphere referees it is important for NH sides to come in contact with them regularly so that we have a hope of adjusting to them at world cups. I just hope Mr Walsh doesn't think next Saturday's game is about him. I think I would rather have Nigel Owens than Walsh reffing!!

As a complete aside, but 6N linked, I still enjoy BBC's coverage greatly (some very good analysts, presenters etc). However, the standard of the commentary to me seems to have dropped. The loss of Nick Mullins to ESPN/ITV is a major loss. Andrew Cotter is good (improving) but I cannot stand Eddie Butler especially when teamed up with Brian Moore. Time to bring in some fresh blood there
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reflector
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RCG has pretty much said it all about Clancy. In fairness, he was better today than I have seen him but not a referee in whom I have much confidence. The incident with Nigel Owens is a good example - Clancy listened but then overruled him although Owens was spot on as it happened. Clearly England were off colour today and will have to play very much better in Cardiff next week.

Finally, I am glad RCG has raised the subject of Eddie Butler - I thought perhaps it was just me but I don't enjoy his commentaries at all. He always seems, to me at any rate, to be biased in favour of Wales and against England - I don't know how many times he referred today to 'next weeks showdown in Cardiff' in a manner that suggested there can only be one result. I imagine he will be the commentator which is not something I will be looking forward to one little bit.
reflector
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Hendo
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So another 6 Nations ends; started so promisingly with a great 1st weekend but there has been a lot of dross since sadly, not helped in some cases by poor weather and in others by indifferent refereeing. Wales worthy winners - their 2nd half performance yesterday was exceptional and quite frankly yet again England flattered to deceive and were once more found wanting when it really mattered.

So as to yesterdays refs.

Thought Wayne Barnes had a decent game; all 4 yellows justified. I like the way he explains decisions to the teams. Suppose at times he could be accused of talking too much (and his somewhat plummy voice may irk folk even more) but he gets things right and is invariably in control, with the teams knowing exactly where they stand with him

Nigel Owens - good game too, seemed very calm and unflustered. Perhaps pressure off as most things already decided

Steve Walsh - well where does one begin? I am not a Walsh fan but praised him last week for the Ireland/France match but have to say he didnt cut the mustard for me this week. I am not going down the line of a whinging Englishman - as I said earlier Wales were far better and deserved to win, no qualms - but I did think some of Walsh's decision making was baffling and he was especially harsh on the England forwards. You could tell the frustrations they were feeling and on at least 1 occasion you could see Robshaw looking confused none the wiser once Walsh had "explained" a penalty decision to him. 2 things I did notice in particular about Walsh, which I wonder if others noticed too -

1. The way he kept looking up to the big screen after giving a decision - was he looking to see if the replay proved him right or did he just want to see a big Steve Walsh in glorious technicolour?? ;-)

2. The number of penalties at the ruck which he gave against England (and on one occasion against Wales) where he seemed to be giving nothing, only to react to an exasperated glance or holding out of the arms in frustration by one of the opposition trying to get at the ball; in other words, I got the distinction impression, rightly or wrongly, that he was being unduly influenced by the behaviour of players rather than giving penalties solely of his own conviction or volition. An example maybe of Wales being more streetwise and "playing the ref" better than England did?

Overall a disappointing 6N and, if pushed, I have to say that the best weekend of reffing, like the best of rugby itself, was the first where Rolland, Poite and Owens all had good games. Any other thoughts?
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RCG
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Hendo has once again stolen most of my thunder. Barnes was v gd, fair, consistent and transparent. Bk to his best?
Owens is IMHO the best in the world atm, he seems to get more rugby played than most.
Walsh, well I wont vocalise exactly how I feel. Eng were woeful but he was worse. I, too, thought he kept viewing the screens. Not good enough. Unfortunately I think the Lions will see him for at least one test
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Mackem ref
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Interesting to see the difference between Walsh and Owens when it came to the scrum.....
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babyref
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Thought Barnes was very very good, I think his communication is the best of any sport official I have ever seen. Clear and firm.
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Hendo
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RCG
Sunday, 17. March 2013, 19:07
Hendo has once again stolen most of my thunder. Barnes was v gd, fair, consistent and transparent. Bk to his best?
Owens is IMHO the best in the world atm, he seems to get more rugby played than most.
Walsh, well I wont vocalise exactly how I feel. Eng were woeful but he was worse. I, too, thought he kept viewing the screens. Not good enough. Unfortunately I think the Lions will see him for at least one test
Whoops sorry RCG! Been waiting for you to post but, in the absence of anyhting by this pm, decided to go ahead.

Glad that we agree yet again and that subsequent posters seem to share our opinions
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Hendo
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Hendo
Sunday, 17. March 2013, 22:34
RCG
Sunday, 17. March 2013, 19:07
Hendo has once again stolen most of my thunder. Barnes was v gd, fair, consistent and transparent. Bk to his best?
Owens is IMHO the best in the world atm, he seems to get more rugby played than most.
Walsh, well I wont vocalise exactly how I feel. Eng were woeful but he was worse. I, too, thought he kept viewing the screens. Not good enough. Unfortunately I think the Lions will see him for at least one test
Whoops sorry RCG! Been waiting for you to post but, in the absence of anyhting by this pm, decided to go ahead.

Glad that we agree yet again and that subsequent posters seem to share our opinions
Actually as Walsh is now an Aussie, not a New Zealander, surely we WONT get him other than in a provincial or warm up game now that I think about it.

In trugh it will be interesting to see who they appoint for the Tests. If we are looking to SA, Joubert springs to mind but he was woeful last week and Peyper is surely too inexperienced; if NZ, Chris Pollock would be my choice but he has been out injured recently and only just back and Glen Jackson still a novice; so this presumably leaves France, with Poite a good bet and maybe Garces as an outsider.

My gut feeling at this juncture is that it will be shared to keep both NH and SH pundits as happy as possible - 1 Test each for Poite, Pollock and (sadly) Joubert. Think Joubert will clinch this by virtue of reffing well last WC though hardly merited on basis of recent performances
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RCG
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Thank god Walsh is now an Aussie :) I think it is even too early for Pollock on the test matches so I'd go Joubert x2 plus Poite
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babyref
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Jerome Garces is marginally more experienced than Pollock so could also be in contention. I agree that it'll probably be Joubert then Poite then Joubert though.
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RCG
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With Garces getting a HEC QF and the Ire/Eng match I think he may be in with a shout. Never know which will be the hardest of the 3 matches to referee- the first to set the tone, the 2nd as one team or other will need to win it or the 3rd as it could be the decider??
Still imagine Joubert getting 2 games though
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