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Spooked Gamers
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 24 2007, 02:02 PM (215 Views)
kismetrose Apr 24 2007, 02:02 PM Post #1
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After thumbing through a number of message boards I have to say that I'm seeing more fear than anger in the gaming community, in regard to recent developments at WotC.

There's a whole new crop of 4th edition threads seemingly based around the assumption that WotC is pulling in all of its licenses in preparation for 4th edition. Related to this are fears that WotC is getting jealous of the superior quality of third party products and that WotC is going to greedily dispatch the competition. Enter the ghost of TSR past.

There are a lot of posts about the fear that WotC will stop supporting their open content policy. Apparently a lot of people suspect that 4th edition will be a closed system, with no third party content. This is not an invalid fear. TSR tried a similar tactic before it died and the OGL FAQ basically states that the OGL is something of an experiment, designed to avoid another market crash. As an experimental policy, WotC could decide that it has failed and scrap the whole thing. I mean, have sales been going up or down?

There are a lot of people predicting the ultimate and complete doom of D&D related to the cancellations in the last two weeks - cancellations that won't be enacted until September and the end of the year, respectively. I couldn't understand why there would be such panic at first, but after a little digging, I started to get the picture. I wasn't playing D&D back when it was still owned by TSR and I didn't pay attention to the moves that TSR made. This site gives some interesting information about the tactics that TSR employed against competitors (though the site is not without its own bias).

While the past and present don't match up exactly, they do hold enough similarities to get people's alarms ringing. TSR eventually started to go on the attack in the mid 1990s, targetting works that fans had put up on the internet. TSR then erected its own server and told fans that they could submit works to that server alone. There were a whole lot of issues with that decree, and as we all know TSR went belly-up in any case.

And that is very near to the heart of the matter. I think people are also spooked because the roleplaying market has crashed before - even the great TSR was brought low - and it will probably happen again. We don't want to see our favorite games go below the verge, and lots of gamers like the idea that they could publish something under the OGL. They don't want to see that chance dry up.

How are you folks feeling about it? I tend to find the folks around here to be more level-headed than elsewhere, so I'm curious. Are you worried? Is this just another phase for you?
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Fixxxer Apr 25 2007, 01:25 PM Post #2
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kismetrose
Apr 24 2007, 04:02 PM
I mean, have sales been going up or down?

Down. And with good reason. If other companies are producing a superior product than WotC, I place the blame squarely on their own shoulders. WotC is the largest and most-equipped company inthe D20 business. That their material is not at the top of the ladder isn't anyone else's fault.

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How are you folks feeling about it?  I tend to find the folks around here to be more level-headed than elsewhere, so I'm curious.  Are you worried?  Is this just another phase for you?


I'm not worried. Even if the mythical 4th edition debutes, I'm very certain it won't be grabbed up the wat 3rd edition was. There simply hasn't been enough time between the "death" of 3rd edition and the debut of 4th...and there won't be, so long as companies other than WotC are producing 3rd edition material. It's moot anyhow. I'll be playing 3.5 for years to come, regardless of whether a new edition is released.
In my mind, it is that simple. But then, I'm simple minded. -Didge-
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suffer4love May 30 2007, 09:25 PM Post #3
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Another thing I wonder is, would it really make any difference now?

I haven't owned D&D3.5 until now, but after spending a couple of days reading through the basic rules, I believe I understand the core mechanic the game runs on.

*The DM determines a Difficulty Class (a number that is a determination of how easy or difficult an action is).
*The Player determines his relevant bonuses and/or penalties that directly affect the action.
*A twenty-sided die is rolled and added to the total bonuses and penalties.
*If this total equals or exceeds the Difficulty Class, the action is adjudicated a success; otherwise it is adjudicated a failure.

Certainly, there is a great deal more detail included in the game, especially in the areas of character creation. However, this is the basic core mechanic. Combat (How to Fight) and Saving Throws (How to do Everything Else) are both based on this basic idea, with whatever additional complexity you need or allow.

Long term gamers will recognize this as a "Target Number" system and has long been in use since the beginning of the hobby. Many, many games have used it or a direct variant of it. All R. Talsorian games, including their beloved Mekton series, used it (using D10) (Dream Park used it, but used 1D6, instead). Rolemaster uses it (using D100+). My beloved Flying Buffalo games use it (using 2D6+). West End Games used it, using variable numbers of dice, in all "D6" games. Earthdawn uses it, with variable dice and an odd "step" system, and the list goes on.

(Some games that aren't Target Number systems include all White Wolf, Shadowrun, GURPS, and Hero System. So, even though a lot of systems do use it, some of the biggest names in the biz don't).

My point is, WotC invigorated the industry with it's new take on an old favorite. In doing so, many many eyes have been opened to the hobby. Now that those eyes are open, it seems unlikely that if WotC closes their door to the outside, that everyone will put on dark glasses and start bumping into walls. The Genie is out of the bottle... people now know how easy it is to have their wish granted.

If WotC chooses to make fourth ed. a closed system, and all of these 3rd party companies have to stop using OGL, I don't think it'll be the end. Instead, they'll follow the example of games like The Riddle of Steel (link) and create their own systems (which will likely still be variants of the same system, for example, roll 2d10 instead of 1d20) for their games.

The strength of the games isn't in the system... and it never was. The strength was in the quality and care of the information presented, which is what the readers want now. As long as they continue putting out products of the same quality, I can see no reason the consumer would stop buying them now. Instead of the death of roleplaying games, it could conceivably turn into another golden age, with a new product out every week.

There are those that will say that the beauty of D20 is it's universality, where gamers were able to play many different games using one rule set. That made them more willing to invest more money where they would not before. But again, that has more to do with quality and style of product than the system. Many other games have done the same thing, notably the Hero System... which has been a major contender in the rpg arena for decades, and GURPS, which has more books than my city library. Neither of these are small press, forgettable publications. They are both major contenders for pieces of the rpg "pie." What neither of them did have, was quality and style on the level of the new D&D (and, possibly, the name recognition). This isn't to say neither of them were bad games; they just didn't catch the attention well enough. (Another benefit WotC had, of course, was M:tG, which re-invigorated the industry years before they bought TSR... just the fact that the company that made M:tG was remaking D&D was enough to install a fan base before the product even hit the market).

Actually, an argument could conceivably be made that the current popularity of the system is because of the third party games, rather than the other way around (the third party games are popular because of D&D). It is possible that when WotC allowed other companies to use their system, it increased the number of gamers who bought and became involved in D&D... after all, D&D was the game that their new favorite game was based on! People who bought, for example, Mutants & Masterminds, might never have bought D&D, because they weren't interested in Fantasy Gaming. But, since they love M&M, and M&M is a direct offshoot of D&D, it makes sense to take interest in the "parent" game... so they buy it, and a new fan is made.

(This is a good reason why WotC may not remove the OGL; certainly there's no way they could do so without hurting their own sales. Once Mongoose Publishing creates their own house system, while keeping their amazing product quality, WotC would find itself in direct competition with a monster they helped to create).

And we must not forget White Wolf. While White Wolf has a style all it's own, a style that dominates, from what I can tell, approximately 33-50% of the rpg landscape. If that figure is correct (and who knows? I just made it up based on what I'm seeing in the market/rpg.net), then that's amazing, considering how much D20/OGL outnumbers it in terms of actual product on the shelves.

So, if fourth ed. becomes a closed system, will it really cause the end of the gaming hobby as we know it? Or will it just reinvigorate the industry yet again, as great new ideas come down the pike every week?

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. ;)
In death's eyes sorrow lingered once, seeing her life torn apart
The shackles fell to see her free to walk the earth
In her eyes life is present still, through the day I watch her sleeping
I hold her close forever more
(Bella Morte)
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Have Dice Will Travel May 31 2007, 05:59 AM Post #4
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Honestly I feel about the same way as when 3rd was announced.

I don't care.

Sure it's nice that there's plenty of stuff coming out on a fairly regular basis. Sure it's nice there's ideas floating around. I don't really need that to keep playing though.

3rd came out in what 99? We didn't start playing it until 2004. The only reason we switched is because Star Child was confused by the system switch between Star Wars d20 and 2nd edition. The only reason we were playing Star Wars d20 was because it had supplements that GURPS didn't and was less work. Don't even get me started on WEG, we use those books for supplements, we just don't like the system.

It's nice that 3rd has brought more people into the hobby, don't get me wrong, but as for how any of this will affect our group or my take on anything, it simply won't. Games will go on, there will always be gamers, though they may be harder to find. Not like it's easy now even with all the newer people. :rolleyes:

Beyond that I think people just want something to panic about.
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suffer4love May 31 2007, 06:39 AM Post #5
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Have Dice Will Travel
May 31 2007, 04:59 AM
Honestly I feel about the same way as when 3rd was announced.

I don't care.

:rofl:

I don't need to make a poll to know how many people would choose that answer!

I just can't stop laughing... <sniff>

I may be giggling all day over that one.
In death's eyes sorrow lingered once, seeing her life torn apart
The shackles fell to see her free to walk the earth
In her eyes life is present still, through the day I watch her sleeping
I hold her close forever more
(Bella Morte)
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Have Dice Will Travel May 31 2007, 08:33 AM Post #6
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suffer4love
May 31 2007, 07:39 AM
Have Dice Will Travel
May 31 2007, 04:59 AM
Honestly I feel about the same way as when 3rd was announced.

I don't care.

:rofl:

I don't need to make a poll to know how many people would choose that answer!

I just can't stop laughing... <sniff>

I may be giggling all day over that one.

Don't get me wrong. We looked at 3rd, we were subscribed to Dragon and all that. It just came down to why bother? Our game is fun and none of the players were interested in changing so why spend the money.
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suffer4love May 31 2007, 08:54 AM Post #7
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Have Dice Will Travel
May 31 2007, 07:33 AM
We looked at 3rd, we were subscribed to Dragon and all that. It just came down to why bother? Our game is fun and none of the players were interested in changing so why spend the money.

So what system rules are you currently using? I thought I read before you say D&D3.5, heavily houseruled. Is that correct?
In death's eyes sorrow lingered once, seeing her life torn apart
The shackles fell to see her free to walk the earth
In her eyes life is present still, through the day I watch her sleeping
I hold her close forever more
(Bella Morte)
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Have Dice Will Travel May 31 2007, 09:46 AM Post #8
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suffer4love
May 31 2007, 09:54 AM
So what system rules are you currently using?  I thought I read before you say D&D3.5, heavily houseruled.  Is that correct?

Yeah that's right.

We did that mostly for Star Child. We finally had a player that would be happier with one system and so we switched. It did open the gamer pool too, but we still had to search for good players just as hard.

I imagine if a new edition comes out we'll probably do the same thing. Stick with what we've got until there's real interest in the new system.

That is of course assuming that it isn't so miniature dependent that I'll refuse to buy it. We've used mini's in the past and enjoyed them, but I don't want to have to use them for the system to work.

In theory I don't have a problem with playing multiple systems and there are plenty I'd love to try out. We just don't have the time to learn a whole new system.
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