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FR Gods Break Down
Tweet Topic Started: Mar 29 2007, 02:36 AM (442 Views)
kismetrose Mar 29 2007, 02:36 AM Post #1
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So today I started a project that Valefor actually helped me to finish - a reference for myself based on Faiths and Pantheons, the catalogue of gods for FR. I basically did a quick-reference spreadsheet since that book has so much info and I needed to reaquaint myself with it. I looked at the following things:

Gender: I was really interested to know the ratio of male to female powers, and to be able to see what kinds of gods were male and female. I couldn't help myself. But I was also glad to write down which gods were which gender because some of their names aren't readily decipherable in this regard.
Name: Duh. But I'll have you know I spelled out the full names of all the elven deities!
Alignment: I was very curious indeed to see how many gods of each alignment there were.
Portfolio: I wanted easy reference to this in case I need to assign a god on the go. Last session a PC asked an NPC which god she worshipped and I was stumped. It was a small detail but I would have liked to been able to fill it.
Domains: Also for quick reference.
Origin: I found myself interested in how the gods became gods in Faerun. I already knew that several major gods ascended from being mortals, and the Mulhorandi pantheon were interlopers from another plane. But how often do such things occur?
Divine Rank & Rating: It's good to know who's a major player and who isn't at a glance. The first section gives divine ranks (number ranks, that is) to the gods listed therein; the other sections just tell you if they're demigods, lesser gods, intermediate, or greater.
Worshippers (by race): Some gods attract particular races to them, and some pantheons are specific to particular races. This is very good to know quickly.
Worshippers (by class): The book lists certain classes as being attracted to certain deities, so I put them down. Honestly, there could have been a lot more than what was listed.
Cleric Alignments: This is good to see at a glance because some deities in FR do not follow the one-step formula. Mystra, for example, has kept the evil clerics of the former incarnation of Mystra, who was LN I believe.

I did not group all of the gods in the book together. The overdeity, Ao, doesn't grant spells or interact with the world at all. The orc pantheon is very stereotypically arranged and the other monster gods are only given a table - they aren't even given full entries. I also didn't do much with the dead gods, though there are quite a few. I also did not include powers outside of the Faiths and Pantheons supplement. I know that Maztica had its own gods, but we're not playing on that continent.

So, here's what I've been perusing for this post: the major gods section, minor gods section, the drow, dwarven, elven, gnome, halfling, and Mulhorandi pantheons.

Anyway, here's what I've found at a glance. There are 113 powers total, 39 goddesses and 74 gods.

39 goddesses

8 of these are demigods
9 are lesser powers
15 are intermediate powers
7 are greater powers

10 are evil
24 are good
5 are neutral

74 gods
15 of these are demigods
20 are lesser powers
22 are intermediate powers
17 are greater powers

15 are evil
30 are good
29 are neutral

Origins
16 powers are ascended mortals (though I wasn't sure about the backgrounds of a couple)
21 powers were conceived by at least one divine parent. The dwarven gods, for example, are mostly a large family sprung from Moradin.
15 powers came to Faerun from other planes (and a couple, in the Mulhorandi pantheon, are interlopers that have divine parentage)

The ratio of male to female gods didn't surprise me. I have noticed that a decent number of female powers rule over nature and/or love, hearth, and home (again, not surprising). I am interested to see that many more male gods are neutral than females, however. I had the feeling that there were a lot more good powers than evil ones but I wasn't expecting the number of neutrals. All in all, Faerun isn't a bad place to be if you want to ascend to godhood or if you want to migrate from another plane.

It should also be said that the gnome pantheon has no female powers, the halfling pantheon has no evil powers, and the elven/drow pantheons are entirely chaotic.

Looking at Wikipedia's lists of gods for Dragonlance and Eberron, the FR swells with deities.
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HollowDes Mar 29 2007, 07:27 AM Post #2
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I'm not quite done with the FR campaign book, but I've definitely noticed the huge number of divine beings. Way more than anything I've ever experienced, in both fantasy and real life. The Greeks came close, and maybe they have a ton we just don't learn about, but I doubt it goes over 100.

I love it, and it makes it easier to explain to players why gods just don't jump in and do whatever the hell they want, and the mortals are at the whim of the gods and Faerun is just their playground. This is sort of present, but not that extreme. There are too many opposing gods and many of them aren't really that powerful. They have dominion over one small specific thing, and the greater gods are wise enough to know not to mess with things often, if at all. Changes are best done slowly, in small steps through their mortal agents. Major changes have often led to catastrophe, as the first three human empires proved.

There's a great entry in the FR campaign book from the perspective of Elminster where he addresses this. He starts out by saying that from peasants to kings, he's always asked why he and the other powerful 20+ heroes don't go around putting out all the fires that evil agents start. He gives five good reasons, and they apply to pretty much anything powerful.

I also like how mortals can ascend to god-hood and several gods aren't native to Toril. Puts a really interesting twist on divinity. Cool compilation, kismet. ^^
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kismetrose Mar 29 2007, 11:00 PM Post #3
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One of the things that bothers me about Faiths and Pantheons is that it gives stats for all of the major deities (though it doesn't give stats for the minor deities). I understand that Faerun is a place where, occasionally, a mortal is able to kill a god; it's happened before. I also understand that with epic level rules available, bigger fish have to be around for characters to fry. But part of me just balks at giving stats to the gods, like they were dragons or kobolds. In some small, subtle way, giving stats to a creature grants the PCs license to try to kill it. I saw this quote in someone's sig the other day that puts it bluntly: "If it has stats, we can kill it" - T.G. Jackson, intro to 3rd Ed Hackmaster. But major gods? I dunno. I ran into the same discomfort when they statted out all the demon princes. (Does anyone know if they stat out the celestial equivalents in another book?)

The way I see it, Faiths and Pantheons has it ass-backwards. Go ahead and give the stats for the demigods - they're practically mortal anyway. If need be, give the stats for lesser deities, since there are plenty of them and they don't have nearly as many levels under their belts. But the intermediate and greater deities are pretty much only going out if maaaaaaajor things happen, like all of their followers dying or another god attacking. They're not going out because an adventuring party is 30th level and overzealous (unless the DM really screws it up). I could see giving the stats for a couple of the major gods just to give an idea of what they're like in comparison, but that's just not how the book presents it. The book of gods really should not be written as part Monster Manual.
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HollowDes Mar 30 2007, 10:24 PM Post #4
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I agree with you completely, that does sound pretty ass-backwards. I'd often envisioned the kind of epic quest it would take to bring down a god, and it would at least require the gathering of several major artifacts, which would of course draw the notice of several gods, and it would be nearly impossible for the PCs to even sleep for a few hours without being beset by attackers. Every time they gathered an artifact, they'd need to take it to some stronghold, and once they gathered them, the travel to whichever portal led to the god's plane would be nuts.

Killing off an entire's god worshippers would be a good start if they were serious, but due to the nature of religion in Faerun, there's no way they could do this without majorly pissing off tons of mortals and gods alike. It would have to be in a single catastrophic magical phenomenon targeted at all of that god's worshippers, an event that I think would shake the fabric of Toril more than the collapse of the human empires in Anauroch, and would probably permanently damage the Weave, or alter it in some way.

I went off on a tangent, but yeah...killing intermediate and major gods is about as futile as trying to kill the Uluu Thalongh (which btw is VERY FUCKING CREEPY!)
Sleep...oh, how I loathe those little slices of death. - Longfellow
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kismetrose Apr 1 2007, 04:35 AM Post #5
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I rarely look at Deities and Demigods, since it has largely bored me in the past. But with all of these thoughts about the pantheons of Faerun I'm having a look at it tonight, out of sheer curiosity.

One of the first things I notice is the the Nature of Divinity section on page 10 - how gods become gods. The book speaks almost as if, when you're world-building, you should focus on one way that gods become divine. There is a small paragraph saying that you can mix the various ideas but the tone of the section seems to shy away from it. The Forgotten Realms, however, is a great example of a mixed divine system in just about all senses, starting with the ways that deities come about:

Innate Divinity: In the Forgotten Realms, some gods simply are gods, like the overdeity Ao, as well as Selune and Shar. They were there and full of divine power before the world was created, before there was anyone to worship them. This seems really important to me because if you think about it, these great deities only have so much need for their followers. They are a part of the very existence of the universe, they simply are, and they are likely to remain even if something happens to all of their followers. Already, Lord Ao has withdrawn from the stage and only takes a hand in dire circumstance, but he remains divine without the need for any clerics at all.

It doesn't seem that this sort of divinity extends to all of the gods, even the early and most elemental ones, however. For example, the battles of Selune and Shar brought about Mystra, the embodiment of magic. When the Netherese wizard Karsus stole Mystra's power (for all of a few seconds), the divine being that was Mystra died. Karsus couldn't keep the fabric of magic together and he was overwhelmed, so that for a few precious moments all of magic died in Faerun. It's not that no one believed in magic any more - people believed fiercely, especially the Netherese wizards in the floating cities that came crashing down - but without an intelligence to weave the essence of magic into being, magic dispersed. Mystra sacrificed herself, it's said, and was able to reform and choose a new "host." Though the stories say that Mystra came about early in creation, it seems that Chauntea, the living expression of the planet, came first and separately. This is important because magic is not innately a part of the planet but something outside, extra. It is uncertain whether Mystra can be destroyed, given that magic predates worshippers, but it does seem that Mystra is vulnerable.

The case of Chauntea is also a strange one. She came into being as the planet itself so she predates worshippers, but if the planet were to somehow be destroyed, it seems unlikely that she would survive.

Stolen Divinity: Finder Wyvernspur was able to ascend by slaying a god and stealing his divine spark. Deities and Demigods suggests that divinity might have a physical existence that can be stolen. While it doesn't sound like the Forgotten Realms has a physical representation of divinity per se, it does seem that the "spark" can somehow be seized, at least when a god expires. Finder Wyvernspur is one of the only such examples I can think of, though.

Imparted Divinity: Some gods, like Uthgar, were raised to godhood through the intervention of another deity. Sometimes this intervention is benevolent, as in Uthgar's case - Tempus liked his fighting spirit. Other times it's a kind of lure, as with Talos' "program" of raising mortals to divinity and then forcing them to expend all of their powers in serving him.

Surrendered Divinity: The god Jergal eventually grew so bored with his lot as god of death and strife that he gave his portfolios away, and to a group of evil adventurers no less. This is also the only example of such behavior that I can think of but it is a powerful example that spawned all sorts of results.

Interloper Deities: There is also quite a crop of deities that have come to Faerun from other planes. The whole Mulhorandi pantheon is a big example.

I've often seen people complain about the deities of Faerun but most of them complain about sheer numbers or particular deities. I'm pretty sure most of them haven't bothered to look at the larger picture, and it's difficult to get the larger picture without looking at the books at length.

A major reason for there being so many gods is that there are so many different kinds of people in Faerun. The dwarves and elves both came from other planes long ago and brought their pantheons with them. These races have also tended to live among themselves and keep their folkways, thus their gods' influence has remained in the realm. Though humans are native to the planet, a whole group of humans known as the Mulhorandi were brought as slaves from another world. They needed their deities' help to break free, and they got that aid in the form of divine avatars. These people know beyond all shadow of a doubt that their gods exist and rule the people, so the Mulhorandi pantheon isn't going anywhere.

The gods are also damned important in the Forgotten Realms setting. In Faerun, if you want to have any kind of afterlife you have to worship some god, otherwise you're pretty much left out in the cold. But more than that, the whole world seems to call for it. Monsters walk the land, tread the air, and swim in the oceans, magic can ravage people and property, clerics can cast spells to commune with the realms outside, and the gods themselves have been among the people. Hell, the Mulhorandi people were ruled by divine avatars for thousands of years, resulting in no small number of half-celestials, tieflings, and so forth. They had the sort of personal time with their gods that other folks can't imagine, even in a place like Faerun when the gods manifest signs and avatars every now and then just to keep the worship strong. With all of this, it's extremely difficult to be an atheist in Faerun. Extremely. I'm talking, you'd have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to believe.

With all of this going on, great variety and numbers make sense. But if you're not in Mulhorand or near it, you don't have to even look at their gods. If you're not playing an elf or a dwarf, what do you care about their pantheons? The DM is the only one who should be familiar with all of the gods for the purpose of making the hoardes of clerics, paladins, and blackguards (oh my!) that might be needed. While religion is bound to show up everywhere in Faerun, not all gods are represented in all places, and some places revolve around only a few. My city of Thandell, a place of roughly 14,000 people, has only four major churches and a fifth one on the way. Within each of the first four churches, there are a number of shrines dedicated to various gods. In the temple of Moradin there are shrines dedicated to all of the dwarven gods in good standing in the pantheon. In each city the players enter, I do what I can to get an idea of which deities reign supreme and which have only shrines for representation. In this way, I take the gods in portions and it works well.
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HollowDes Apr 1 2007, 03:55 PM Post #6
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I've also noticed the trend in Faerun where there are "true gods", those who are inherent, and then everyone else who ascends to divinity in a number of interesting ways. Bane won his divinity in a game of chance with Jergal, then turned around and was slain by another god, Torm, also a mortal at one point.

What I find interesting is that some of the inherent gods are only intermediate or lesser gods on the power scale (Shaundakul), while some of the current greater gods were mortals who just have large portfolios, like Cyric. Aspects of portfolios can also be stolen, a mechanic I don't understand at all, but try not to think about too hard.

I like the story of creation and the war of light and darkness, where Selune and Shar have cat fights like a couple of enraged teenage girls yanking each other's hair. Every time they have a disagreement and use their power to hurt one another or create something to spite the other, a new deity pops up along with it. Chauntea was given life when the goddesses created the bodies of the heavens. When Chauntea begged for warmth, so she could create life on Toril, Selune and Shar argued about whether they should or not. The two fought, and the deities of war, diesase, murder, death and other fell forces were created. Selune used the plane of fire to ignite one of the heavenly bodies to give Chauntea warmth, and like a frustrated brat, Shar started snuffing it out. Then in retalliation, Selune tore divine essence from herself and hurled it at Shar, creating Mystryl, the original goddess of magic. Then their new daughter Mystryl managed to calm the two raging goddesses down and created an uneasy truce. Selune retreated to regain her strength, and Shar retreated to plot her revenge. :lol:

I had some questions that had popped up while I was reading, but I can't remember them now, and will post them later if I do.
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kismetrose Apr 2 2007, 01:44 PM Post #7
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I've also noticed the trend in Faerun where there are "true gods", those who are inherent, and then everyone else who ascends to divinity in a number of interesting ways.

Actually, if you look at the numbers, only 16 ascended from being mortals. The rest pretty much have divine origins - conceived by parent gods, coming from other planes, or occuring through cosmic events like the battles of Selune and Shar. The thing is, right now Faerun has some very important gods that used to be mortals, with very big portfolios - Cyric, Mystra, Kelemvor - and these are recent ascensions. The Time of Troubles was in 1358 and that's when all of those gods ascended; the current game year of the campaign setting is 1372, not long after. But for a long time before that, those portfolios were held by older gods.
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Aspects of portfolios can also be stolen, a mechanic I don't understand at all, but try not to think about too hard.

I'm pretty sure that it wasn't meant to be a mechanic but if you think about it, it can make sense. If a portfolio is something that can be given away, then it can be usurped. Some gods seem more like current representatives of ideas, and not inherently bound to those ideas. Take Chauntea - she is the planet, no one's usurped her, and it would be difficult to imagine someone usurping her. But we're on the third Mystra. And there's something to be said for association and name recognition. If a god starts to usurp an idea and the people catch on, then they might start to associate the new god with that idea.
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HollowDes Apr 4 2007, 11:21 AM Post #8
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When I first typed out that bit, I hadn't finished the whole history section, and just recently learned about the Time of Troubles. I didn't realize what a small number of mortals actually ascended during this time. Reading about that made it all come together, because I was wondering while reading about the gods how some of them were slain by mortals. They themselves were made mortal. I also found it interesting that Ao allowed Helm to keep his divinity. I guess he was the only one who didn't slack off :P

In regards to portfolios, I still don't quite understand how a god who wants to continue representing a portfolio, such as Cyric losing "Death" to Kelemvor, can "lose" claim over that concept. I know he went insane by an artifact he created when Kelemvor did this, but that's such an awkward idea to me. When Cyric snappd out of his madness, couldn't he just say, "Well, Kelemvor might think he's the god of death, but I also still represent death, and my claim is the true one."

I don't see how he snaps out of the madness and says, "Dammit! I lost my Death portfolio and I really liked that one, but I can't get it back until I figure out a way to steal it back from Kelemvor."

Cyric and Kelemvor are kind of a bad example, because I could understand Kelemvor taking advantage of Cyric's lapse in duties, but what about other gods who are conscious of portfolios being moved around?

Look what you did to me! And I didn't want to think about these too much, and this is why! :lol:
Sleep...oh, how I loathe those little slices of death. - Longfellow
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kismetrose Apr 4 2007, 02:19 PM Post #9
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When I first typed out that bit, I hadn't finished the whole history section, and just recently learned about the Time of Troubles. I didn't realize what a small number of mortals actually ascended during this time.

Yes, but only 16 gods have ascended to divine status from being mortals*, period. The Time of Troubles saw three different mortals attain divine status - 3 out of only 16. That probably hadn't happened since Bane ascended with Bhaal and Myrkul. In any case, mortals don't ascend very often, and more than one mortal ascending at a time is far more rare.

* There were a couple gods we weren't 100% sure about so we didn't include them in this number
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In regards to portfolios, I still don't quite understand how a god who wants to continue representing a portfolio, such as Cyric losing "Death" to Kelemvor, can "lose" claim over that concept.

I think the key here is that gods might want to keep their power, but they aren't omnipotent or omniscient. Other gods work against them, mortals gather followers down on the planet, and a portfolio can be lost. If the gods always had what they wanted, they would never be able to be slain or even slowed - but these things have happened more than once. There's a lot more to a god's existence than what they want.
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I know he went insane by an artifact he created when Kelemvor did this, but that's such an awkward idea to me.

I could be wrong but I think that happened in one of the novels. Seems a weird idea to me too.
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When Cyric snappd out of his madness, couldn't he just say, "Well, Kelemvor might think he's the god of death, but I also still represent death, and my claim is the true one."

Sure he could. But who would listen and/or believe him? Who would trust his word? How many people had been won over to Kelemvor's side by that time? How many people didn't like the idea of Cyric representing death to begin with? As I recall, Cyric didn't have the portfolio of death for very long before it was taken from him. It seems that Kelemvor was able to do somthing Cyric wasn't able to pull off - Kelemvor made himself into the iconic image of the officiate of death in the minds and hearts of many people, and that's why Cyric can't just take it back. He would have to find a way to usurp or efface that image.
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Cyric and Kelemvor are kind of a bad example, because I could understand Kelemvor taking advantage of Cyric's lapse in duties, but what about other gods who are conscious of portfolios being moved around?

Other gods are generally in a better position to defend their claims. They can put their clergy to work, grant some miracles, and keep the status quo. And, when all else fails, they can fight for it, god to god.
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