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Kismet's FR Campaign (Setting)
Tweet Topic Started: Mar 19 2007, 10:49 PM (417 Views)
kismetrose Mar 19 2007, 10:49 PM Post #1
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In another thread, HollowDes asked for details about my long-standing campaign set in the Forgotten Realms and for my viewpoint on Faerun. Since it's going to take some doing, I thought I would start a new thread for it here. I'll be quoting from Hollow's post, however, which can be read in its entirety here.
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Sometimes when I'm trying to design a town or city (something I still struggle with and often put off), I feel like I'm playing Sim City, or working a civic engineer.

The nice thing about the Forgotten Realms is that it is very detailed. Folks have been working on it steadily, busily even, since the 1980s, so there are tons of towns to choose from that already have at least some details put into them. So when I'm going to use a place I tend to look at the materials I have about it, decide what to keep and what to toss, and figure out what we need to play. For the small city that I made and set in Faerun, I started with a sketch and have filled it in slowly over time. I just don't have the time or energy to get into Sim City mode, though I wish I did.
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Does the power center in this town stand-alone, established by adventurers and homesteaders, or does the land belong to a greater government that the local power center is just a piece of? Do nobles run large cities, or do guilds? How involved do nobles get in the welfare of a city on their land? Do nobles' manors exist in the city, on the outskirts, or somewhere out in the country?

For the city I created, Thandell, it goes something like this: A town called Nesmé sprang up in the renowned Troll Moors and managed to hold its own and make a reputation for itself. A group of people from a city on the other end of the Troll Moors, called Everlund, had several reasons for becoming interested in the area. Have a look at the map below:
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Nesmé was able to take advantage of several things about its position. First, it had the River Surbin, a major waterway for trade (but not in the freezing winters). Next, the Nesméans weren't that far from Silverymoon and could act as a waypoint for trade between that city and other places to the south. They could also travel to Silverymoon and take advantage of that city's famous resources (magic, grand library, etc.). But Nesmé was also far enough away from Silverymoon to be able to tell that prestigious, utterly lawful good city to mind its own business; autonomy was important to the lawful neutral Nesméans. The town was also trying to get in talks with the dwarves of Mithral Hall to get a further foothold in the area.

The folks from Everlund wanted land of their own; the land in Everlund was all spoken for. The folks in Everlund also wanted to do the Nesméans one better: they wanted to build on the other side of the river from the Troll Moors in a more defendable location, near an old elf wizard's tower. The founding royals of Thandell also had a strong desire to make their own way by the sweat of their own efforts. They somehow managed to convince the elf, Mistress Talindra, to let them settle around her tower. She helped later on to secure relations with Mithral Hall. Thandell, badly in need of allies and support, openly declared that dwarves were always welcome in their town and a couple of dwarves decided to try that invitation. Not only were the people of Thandell grateful to have the dwarves around, but they were openly in awe of dwarven crafts, fortifications, and strength. The dwarves have been a permanent fixture ever since and Thandell is one of the few places where humans regularly speak the dwarven language. None of this has endeared Thandell to Nesmé and they have fought routinely.

The royal family of Thandell comes from the royal line of Everlund and has married back into the nobility of Everlund ever since. The two cities are joined despite their distance and different dispositions (Thandell leans toward LG, my version of Everlund toward LN). While there are nobles who own plenty of things in Thandell, the location is simply too dangerous to let people rest on laurels. The nobles have to earn their keep like everyone else and most nobles attend the city's academy, spending their terms of service along with the common folk. Very successful people who gain a reputation byt the work of their own hands attain a status that goes beyond mere nobility in most people's books.

Other cities have different setups. Many places are generally run by nobles and/or very wealthy families (often in competition with one another, at some level). Other places are run by guilds. Smaller places can be held by homesteaders but larger gatherings tend to have developed larger structures - some sort of pecking-order, generally a government of some kind. I try to take each place as it comes up and give it it's own flavor. Sometimes I imagine what the city's overall alignment is so I can get an idea of how the whole place tends to work. I do put some thought into who's in power but I think of it as the city's story, not a mechanically-based mock-up.
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Where does trash go? Are there public services paid for by taxes to take care of it? Or does it just overflow in the streets? Are there sewers? If so, who built and paid for them?

I do not usually bother with questions like these unless they're going to be pertinent to game play. If a city has a run-down condition, you'll hear about garbage in the streets, foul smells and so on. Otherwise, it just isn't important.
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How do the people here make their living? How many buildings are for services and how many for goods? Where do the goods come from?

I don't completely map out a city beforehand so I end up showing what a place is like through the game. I try to show NPCs that are making their living doing all sorts of things: farming, selling, making items, etc. I also try to play up any large or special trades in the area. When my group went to the seaside city of Thentia they were surprised by the variety of fish, the new types of fish, and all of the sea-related tradespeople, as well as the sea-related gods. I do some thinking about trade relations but I don't have them mapped out either; there is a nice map in the FR main book that outlines trade wonderfully. I don't bother with counting buildings, though.

To be continued...
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kismetrose Mar 20 2007, 03:34 AM Post #2
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To continue...
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What do the people eat? Where does it come from? If it's farms or pastures or both, how is all that open land protected from mauraders and thieves?

I do make reference to food in my games, though not so much in regard to farming. I let my PCs know how well off their surroundings are not just by fancy rooms but also by richer foods. The general fare on the road is rough most of the time and the usual fare at inns is plain. Higher priced places offer more variety, more meat, richer tastes and textures. The PCs get an idea of how well off their hosts are by the food that's served, as well. They've definitely come up in the world since first level.

There are regional and racial considerations to take into account also. Thandell's cooking has been influenced by dwarven cooking, so a lot of mushroom are used and other materials that can flourish in the darker places. The sole dwarf PCs has a wife who is an amazing cook; the whole group has an attachment to the mushrooms that she sends off with them each time they leave town. Different types of drink are served across the continent as well; one of the PCs picks up a bottle of the local brew in each town he passes through.

If I'm going to work a story around crops, or famine, or threats to livestock, then I'll come up with more information about such things. If it's not going to be important, then only so much detail is used. For the most part, the players can expect the land to be used through farming, the water through fishing, and so on, in order to provide food for the population. Some places have interesting details about their farming. Thandell's soil is enriched by ankhegs, for instance, making it dangerous sometimes to farm but worth it to have the bugs around.

A drow city that I was working on ages back was formed around a very rich water source that had all kinds of fish. I was thinking of saying that many of the fish had learned to live on the waste products of other creatures, since food in the Underdark can be scarce. Thus, the drow of that city "fed" their fish with their wastes. It was either that, or magic was used to funnel wastes away from the precious water and food source. I hadn't really decided.
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Is there a standing army or militia or city-guards? Who pays their wages and has final authority over them? Who trains them? Are they from all over the kingdom or local citizens conscripted in? Does this change from one city to the next, or is it the same across the entire kingdom? Does the size of the city change the size of the fighting force, or just the structure, or both?

Generally speaking, in my world the higher people on the totem pole keep a couple of guards around them at least, if not a sizeable force. So nobles, successful merchants, leaders and former leaders all maintain security for themselves. There are also groups that keep their own military forces (and often fall into fighting). Kind of like the drow. Each house has its own military resources in a Lolthian city; though they must all do their part to keep outside threats from crushing them, Lolthian houses duke it out using their own people. One might even say that they fight like that because they have their own people - if there was more of a centralized setup it would be more difficult for the houses to wage their private wars.

Thandell is in a precarious position. It is across the river from the famed Troll Moors and an often hostile city. Thandell is also close to the Moon Wood, which is known for its dangerous (formerly lycanthropes, now other things due to our campaign). To cap things off, it's near enough to get some spillover from the Spine of the World mountains, a breeding ground for humanoids. Thus, the city pretty much needs a constant defense and a ready force in case things get really hairy. So the Thandell monarchy opened an academy to train citizens and to ensure a steady fighting force. The academy is government approved and subsidized; all major commanders of the academy report directly to the Queen. Some citizens pay a fee for their training in order to cover costs; many people sign contracts for terms of service during and after their training. The government makes sure to offer bonuses to graduates so that they'll continue to serve in the city's defense.

But these sorts of details change from place to place. Larger kingdoms, spread out across various cities, might require more consolidation and conscription.
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Humans and other races do tend to prey upon one another though, so it wouldn't be too hard to imagine there being bandit hideouts in civilized lands, with the understanding that local law enforcement (however it exists) is aware of the bandit presence and balancing their manpower between keeping the peace and finding the bandit hideout and bringing them to justice.

Bandits hideouts? Sure. But that's only the tip of the iceberg. Local crime is more than enough for most cities to handle. There are constant breaches of law from within any city, whether people notice or not. This can become a danger to city security, too. What if citizens are trading in dangerous materials, foul magics, exotic creatures, or with yuan-ti slavers?
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HollowDes Mar 20 2007, 07:26 AM Post #3
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kismet, you rock :rock: That was pretty entertaining to read and quite insightful. I can see the blend of your personal preferences with the material Faerun provides, and I find it interesting where you choose to get very detailed and where not to. Awfully generous of you to take the time to share that with us, thanks you ;)
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kismetrose Mar 20 2007, 12:19 PM Post #4
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HollowDes
Mar 20 2007, 07:26 AM
kismet, you rock :rock:  That was pretty entertaining to read and quite insightful.  I can see the blend of your personal preferences with the material Faerun provides, and I find it interesting where you choose to get very detailed and where not to.  Awfully generous of you to take the time to share that with us, thanks you ;)

It's no problem at all. Thank you for asking and being interested. :)

It's actually helped to get me thinking about the D&D game again, about how things were set up and why. And I really like the Forgotten Realms. Did you get the play the Baldur's Gate games?
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HollowDes Mar 20 2007, 12:40 PM Post #5
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I've heard of them a ton, and I think I goofed around with character creation in one, but my final answer would have to be, no not really.

I'm beginning to think I should just break down and buy the FR Core Campaign book and let myself DM in that world for awhile before going any further with my current homebrew project.

In my endlessly futile efforts to nail down a consistent play group, I might have stumbled into one with my brother, a friend and an ex-co-worker, but the friend and brother are pretty busy, and it's hard to say whether it'll work out or not. But, if it does, none of them, including myself, has played a long-standing D&D campaign enough to be sick of typical fantasy stereo-types. They come to the table expecting it, and they're mature enough to avoid making jokes about "elves being gay and dwarves being fat". I realize now my homebrew's attempt to break away from these stereotypes was a response to DM'ing for the middle-school group where I used to work who were saturated with LotR culture.

Imagine if you had a new group and said, "Ok gang we're going to play D&D", and they respond with, "Cool! I call Elminster!" The next player follows with, "Fine, then I'm Drizzt"

Except with me it was, "I'm going to be Legolas!" "Then I call Ilsildur!" "My human is from Rohan!"

Forgotten Realms is a good idea, because it's all new and fresh to me, and will be to my players too. How much is in my bank acount anyway... lol
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kismetrose Mar 20 2007, 01:32 PM Post #6
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I've heard of them a ton, and I think I goofed around with character creation in one, but my final answer would have to be, no not really.

They really are excellent games (though they use 2nd edition D&D rules, which are easy enough to get used to). They also gave myself and Valefor an excellent feel for the Realms. If you ever get curious, they're worth having; we never let our copies go.
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I'm beginning to think I should just break down and buy the FR Core Campaign book and let myself DM in that world for awhile before going any further with my current homebrew project.

Homebrews can be very intense experiences, costing a lot of time and energy. When I first wanted to run I realized that I wouldn't have the time to make a homebrew and what's more, I knew I didn't want to - I already loved the Realms and could make them what I wanted them to be in any case. But for me, the Realms provided all of the backup I needed as a DM who worked, went to school, had a relationship, and so on.

And the Realms are diverse enough to provide a lot of different types of games and settings. You want cities? Silverymoon, Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, and Athkatla are just a few. You want rugged survival and a frontier feel? The Savage North region is it (that's also where Thandell is located). If you've got a hankering for exotic Middle East flavor, try Calimshan. Evil wizard empire? Thay. A famous and frightening jungle? The whole peninsula of Chult. Dwarves? Check. Elves? Check. Drow? Check. You want to go planehopping? Faerun is supposedly riddled with portals like a Swiss cheese. You want gods? We've got your gods right here, from other planes or home-grown, from different racial pantheons too! I love it!

But if you don't mind owning the book second hand, prices aren't nearly as bad as they used to be. I got the book not long after it first came out as a birthday present and I knew it was $40. I asked for it for the holidays or my birthday precisely because it was a bit more than I could spend on a book at the time. It was also some of the best spent $40 in existence, since we continue to use the book to this day.

If you have a gander and you like it, and you want to use it, let me know. I can readily suggest some excellent supplements to go with it.
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Imagine if you had a new group and said, "Ok gang we're going to play D&D", and they respond with, "Cool! I call Elminster!" The next player follows with, "Fine, then I'm Drizzt"

Except with me it was, "I'm going to be Legolas!" "Then I call Ilsildur!" "My human is from Rohan!"

Sometimes I realize just how late I was coming to the Lord of the Rings. I didn't read the books for the first time till my early twenties though I had them on my shelf since my fourteenth birthday. And though I fell in love with the series, I already felt that they had influenced gaming enough without being directly emulated. I can't imagine what it would have been like if I'd taken to the books when I was fourteen...
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HollowDes Mar 20 2007, 03:52 PM Post #7
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:lol:
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They really are excellent games (though they use 2nd edition D&D rules, which are easy enough to get used to). They also gave myself and Valefor an excellent feel for the Realms. If you ever get curious, they're worth having; we never let our copies go.


Hehe, I first learned in 2nd edition, and was such a die-hard fan, I didn't convert to D&D 3.0, and didn't give in until a friend paid for my 3.5 PHB. From the sounds of it, I'm glad I didn't cave-in during the early days of 3.0...

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But if you don't mind owning the book second hand, prices aren't nearly as bad as they used to be. I got the book not long after it first came out as a birthday present and I knew it was $40. I asked for it for the holidays or my birthday precisely because it was a bit more than I could spend on a book at the time. It was also some of the best spent $40 in existence, since we continue to use the book to this day.


lol, I broke down on my lunch break and went and bought it. $43 and some change after tax, and while I realize I could have gotten it cheaper on-line, when I have the money to spend, I'm an immediate gratification kind of person.

I can't remember ever being so excited to hold a book in my hands. A whole campaign setting, right here before me, in 320 pages, actually designed with 3.x rules in mind. I'll be devouring this for the next few days, and I might run to this forum with questions :P

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I can't imagine what it would have been like if I'd taken to the books when I was fourteen...


I read "The Hobbit" when I was 12, and that was pretty awesome. But, for some reason, I didn't follow through with the trilogy. "The Hobbit" was such a good epic tale all wrapped up in one book, I was satisfied and probably got distracted by something else. I wish I would have remembered that when I was DM'ing for the kids though... thinking about it now, I was probably a little harsh on their creativity.

*sigh* Young intellectuals can be the biggest assholes sometimes :lol:
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kismetrose Mar 20 2007, 06:31 PM Post #8
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From the sounds of it, I'm glad I didn't cave-in during the early days of 3.0...

Actually, we liked a lot about 3.0 and still use a good portion of it.
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I can't remember ever being so excited to hold a book in my hands. A whole campaign setting, right here before me, in 320 pages, actually designed with 3.x rules in mind. I'll be devouring this for the next few days, and I might run to this forum with questions

Keep in mind that it was made for 3.0; if you want a full update for 3.5, you'll need the player's guide. But most things won't be a problem.

What you hold in your hands is the distillation of many other books. If you track down the second edition materials you'll see how much more material there was before. The distillation is a good one, though, and very coherent. And it's all in one book. :wub:
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I read "The Hobbit" when I was 12, and that was pretty awesome. But, for some reason, I didn't follow through with the trilogy. "The Hobbit" was such a good epic tale all wrapped up in one book, I was satisfied and probably got distracted by something else.

The beginning of The Hobbit was too cutesy for me when I was 14; it just didn't hold my interest. And I figured the rest of the books were the same way. Then a coworker suggested the books to me so I picked them up again. I devoured each and went on to the Silmarillion (but had to take a break half way through that tome), but not until I was all grown up.
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HollowDes Mar 21 2007, 09:12 AM Post #9
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What you hold in your hands is the distillation of many other books. If you track down the second edition materials you'll see how much more material there was before. The distillation is a good one, though, and very coherent. And it's all in one book.


I kind of caught onto that. I noticed the authors of this book are some of the same key players who created the core books for 3.0, and when I saw the copyright of this as 2001, I immediately realized this was a kind of summary of the vast wealth of Forgotten Realms material that existed in 2nd ed.

So far I love it. I'm enthralled and I'm having a hard time putting it down, even sneaking reading pages at work, lol. I told myself I was going to leave it home last night or I wouldn't get any work done, but here it is at my side on the floor.

This gives me exactly what I wanted all along. It has some traditional fantasy elements that are recognizable to players, but enough variations and little twists to create a really unique place that doesn't feel too "Tolkein". No wonder you've raved about it so long!

From the different kinds of elves, to the Strongheart Halflings (one of my new favorite races) and all the different regions and details. Oh the regions are great! What's also cool about this setting, is that it doesn't just introduce story fluff for the sake of it, it's almost always backed up by a mechanic that actually provides a function in-game for players and DMs. Like the Weave of Mystral, the regional starting equipment and feats, the mage runes and all the different druid circles, monastic and paladin orders.

This setting has or addresses game elements I've always wanted, and now they're mine, all mine! :woot:

I'm curious though, about the version of Faerun in my hands. Have novels written for the setting caused it to change or introduced entirely new modules as supplements to it? I understand that each DM's version of Faerun is their own, and they can ignore the novels if they choose, I'm just curious if there's been that kind of bridge between the literature and the game materials.

I also have some questions about pronunciations. Some people consider pronunciation subjective, and if everyone in the group agrees on it, who cares. I'm the same way for the most part, but I attest that every word has an objective pronunciation intended by its original creator. If you haven't heard the objective pronunciation from a video-game or mouth of a developer, I'd just be curious to hear how you think it should be pronounced. So...

Is Faerun prounounced "Fay-run" "Fay-roon", or something in-between and kind of Germanic? I know the little accent symbol over the 'u' means something, but our Amercian tongues are lazy, so if it's meant to be "Fay-roan" where it kind of comes from the back of the throat, forgettaboutit =P

What about Cormyr? Could be "Cor-meer" or "Cor-mur".

Then there's Drizzt. Trying to say that like it looks, makes me feel like a bumblebee. Do people normally add an extra syllable between the 'z' and 't', like 'Drizzit'. I actually have a player who's named his elven ranger "Drizzt", but he keeps saying "drits", like they're backwards. Works for us, but I might have to ask him to alter it a little since I'll be dropping them into FR from a generic, nameless Greyhawk.

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Actually, we liked a lot about 3.0 and still use a good portion of it.


I've only flipped through some of the 3.0 books, and I hear horror stories about things like rangers not having combat styles, and bards being much "weaker". I don't really know the major differences between 3.0 and 3.5, if they can be called "major" at all.
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kismetrose Mar 21 2007, 02:50 PM Post #10
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So far I love it. I'm enthralled and I'm having a hard time putting it down, even sneaking reading pages at work, lol. I told myself I was going to leave it home last night or I wouldn't get any work done, but here it is at my side on the floor.

This gives me exactly what I wanted all along. It has some traditional fantasy elements that are recognizable to players, but enough variations and little twists to create a really unique place that doesn't feel too "Tolkein". No wonder you've raved about it so long!

I am so glad that you like it! And not just because you spent money on it, but because now you're having an experience that I remember well. When I first got my hands on that book I was like a kid in a candy store after hours and it was damned fun and exciting. It's the sort of feeling that every gamer should have, whether they get it from FR or not.
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I'm curious though, about the version of Faerun in my hands. Have novels written for the setting caused it to change or introduced entirely new modules as supplements to it? I understand that each DM's version of Faerun is their own, and they can ignore the novels if they choose, I'm just curious if there's been that kind of bridge between the literature and the game materials.

I know that the novels have had some impact, but I've only read a small fraction of them. Drizzt, as far as I know, started out in novels and has made his way into the setting. I know that they've liked to write novels about just about any corner of Faerun so there's a metric ton of them. That same site has a file on how the novels interact with each other. I'm just not sure how much they've impacted the setting. I mean, which came first, the novel or the published materials?
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Is Faerun prounounced "Fay-run" "Fay-roon", or something in-between and kind of Germanic?

I'm not sure how it's officially supposed to be pronounced, actually. I've looked around a bit and haven't found much of an answer, either. I remember in one of the BG games an NPCs calls it "fay-run" but we tend toward "fay-roon" in our group.
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What about Cormyr? Could be "Cor-meer" or "Cor-mur".

I can't speak for original intentions of pronunciation, but we use "cor-meer."
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Do people normally add an extra syllable between the 'z' and 't', like 'Drizzit'. I actually have a player who's named his elven ranger "Drizzt", but he keeps saying "drits", like they're backwards. Works for us, but I might have to ask him to alter it a little since I'll be dropping them into FR from a generic, nameless Greyhawk.

I've never heard it pronounced that way and since he's inserting a 't' where there isn't one, it's probably a bit off. Most folks I've met have used "drizzst," with the 'z's' ending up in a slight 's' sound, or "drizz-it," which always sounds odd to me.
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I've only flipped through some of the 3.0 books, and I hear horror stories about things like rangers not having combat styles, and bards being much "weaker". I don't really know the major differences between 3.0 and 3.5, if they can be called "major" at all.

I suggest having a look so that you can get an idea of the difference. That way you can decide which version you're going to go with, or if you're going to have to mix your own together.
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HollowDes Mar 21 2007, 04:15 PM Post #11
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I was like a kid in a candy store


Exactly :D

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I mean, which came first, the novel or the published materials?


Ah, the ol' dragon or the egg? Well I don't feel like I'm missing out on much then, if I don't read the ridiculous plethora of novels.

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but we tend toward "fay-roon" in our group ... but we use "cor-meer."


As will I.

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Most folks I've met have used "drizzst," with the 'z's' ending up in a slight 's' sound


Ah, that makes sense. Kinda like "drist" with a little buzz before the 's'. As far as my friend getting them backwards, I could tell that's how his eyes first saw it and it's been in his mind that way ever since. It was honestly hard not to chuckle. Come to think of it, he comes with weird pronounciations for things. One of those people who says, "puh-LAD-in" instead of "Pal-uh-din".

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I suggest having a look so that you can get an idea of the difference. That way you can decide which version you're going to go with, or if you're going to have to mix your own together.


Well, I already own the three core books for 3.5, so I don't see that happening any time soon, especially since I haven't read them all cover-to-cover yet. I have read the entire PHB, but not beginning to end. I should do that some time, just to go over it all again.

As an aside, have you noticed we're the only ones who have posted in this thread? I enjoy going back and forth like this, but am also quite amused by it. By quoting each other and responding, it's like having an instant-messaging conversation, but frozen in time. :lol: I noticed there's a chat room link, but I've never clicked it.

Anyway, if you get the time and/or desire, I'd be interested to hear more about your version of FR, especially now that I'm becoming familiar with the setting. I know your busy, so please don't feel any kind of obligation whatsoever.
Sleep...oh, how I loathe those little slices of death. - Longfellow
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kismetrose Mar 22 2007, 12:18 PM Post #12
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Come to think of it, he comes with weird pronounciations for things. One of those people who says, "puh-LAD-in" instead of "Pal-uh-din".

Sometimes people hear things in their heads a certain way and that's just the way they think it should be. Every now and then a word will be mispronounced and it sounds better that way. As long as the group knows what they're saying, and they know what folks outside the group are saying, it's no big deal.

Vampire is pretty bad about pronunciation. I remember when I went to Ohio and my friends over there said "Tzimisce," my boyfriend and I had no fucking clue what the hell they meant for a little while. I mean, we had to really get them to explain who they were talking about.
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As an aside, have you noticed we're the only ones who have posted in this thread? I enjoy going back and forth like this, but am also quite amused by it. By quoting each other and responding, it's like having an instant-messaging conversation, but frozen in time. I noticed there's a chat room link, but I've never clicked it.

Yes, I'd noticed, but I've always been of the opinion that you don't need a lot of folks involved to have a good time. And I'm used to people reading these boards without responding - hell, most of the registered people don't post much. I'm just glad for the people who do read and/or post; when this place first started out, I felt like I was talking to myself the first few months.

A while back somebody mentioned that it would be nice to chat directly, so I added the link. Unfortunately there's no way to tell if someone's already in there, and I don't have the time to do too much online right now.

I'll post more about our game in a bit, but today I actually have to figure out what all we're going to do tomorrow.
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kismetrose Mar 23 2007, 06:03 AM Post #13
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One of the things I noticed tonight while I was working on the game was this: a whole load of NPCs are going to be around in the next few sessions. It's not just that the PCs are in their home town for a while but that all sorts of social events are coinciding.

The dwarf cleric has Leadership and he has a grip of followers. His cohort travels with him and the followers stay behind most of the time, but they are all individually characterized. I'm glad I've had Valefor's help on followers since he tends to come up with good ones.

The new half-elf wizard also has followers and a cohort, and since she's a new PC the player is going to want to get a feel for her people. I'm also going to want to see which personalities end up coming out for them.

The human paladin just started a messenger business with some overgrown eagles (I believe) and he's got people working for him, so they'll be around. Many of them are recurring NPCs in any case, but one or two are new.

Added to that, a royal event is coming up that the PCs are already a part of. The royals of Thandell and Everlund need to secure marriages for themselves; most of them have put it off for one reason or another. Previously, the PCs got to travel as royal appointees; they got to meet eligible folks from other cities, give them magical tests, find out what was wrong with them, and give a report about suitability. When the great ball finally happens, the PCs are going to know every damned NPC in the room. What's more, the PCs are going to know the up and coming monarchs pretty well. I'm hoping that it will make the big machinery of government more personal and something to care about.

I suppose since it's now 6:05 in the morning and I've been up all night that I should get to sleep. Sorry if this post wasn't entirely on topic...
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HollowDes Mar 23 2007, 03:31 PM Post #14
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Sorry if this post wasn't entirely on topic...


No way! It was spot on for more insights into how your DM mind works and the thought processes behind the set-up you do for your playing.

I have some questions, as always.

How does the PCs having tons and tons of followers and cohorts work out?

Seems like that becomes more trouble than it's worth and would slow the PCs down to have a small army of followers. How do you keep the game from getting bogged down and how do the mechanics play out?

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I'm also going to want to see which personalities end up coming out for them.


What do you mean by this? I assume that as DM you role-play all the NPCs; I guess this isn't true? Or it is true, and your role-playing is so on-the-fly that you're not sure how you'll interpret them until you're in the spotlight?

Along those same lines, when there's a scene where it makes sense for NPCs to be having a dialogue the players are listening in on, how do you role-play this out? Do you use 3rd-person narrative, like:

"NPC A says to NPC B, 'Guard duty is boring, and this pay is barely keeping bread on my table.' NPC B responds with a shrug and says, 'T'aint so bad if'n you can keep yer mind occupied'"

Or do you role-play it all in first-person and just change voices or the direction you're facing when talking?

I've probably tried all of the methods mentioned above, and the one I like the most is 3rd-person narrative. I used to be famed for doing voices for my NPCs, but I'm trying to break away from that, because when it came to mimicing females, it just got ridiculous. I now aim to talk in my normal conversatoinal voice, but I'll lower or raise my tone, and of course still try to convey the same emotion I want the PCs to get from the NPC.

I remember this plot-line from a *long* time ago when you asked for advice about how to handle the weekend (I think it was a weekend) the PCs would be spending with marital candidates in an estate or manor. So this is that same campaign just now getting picked up eh? *whistles* No wonder you felt scatter-brained about it :lol: Sounds like you're getting back into the groove of it though! :ayyy:
Sleep...oh, how I loathe those little slices of death. - Longfellow
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kismetrose Mar 24 2007, 06:23 AM Post #15
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How does the PCs having tons and tons of followers and cohorts work out?

When the characters first got Leadership, it worked out just fine. There were two characters who took it back then. The one that is no longer with us got a lot of people to start off with because he was a paladin with an 18 Charisma and other modifiers in his favor. The character that is still with us, a dwarven cleric, didn't start off with such a high score. He's built his way up since then.
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Seems like that becomes more trouble than it's worth and would slow the PCs down to have a small army of followers. How do you keep the game from getting bogged down and how do the mechanics play out?

Well, it basically goes like this: we don't use the Leadership feat as it has been printed. Over the years we've made some adjustments to it, in both major and minor ways. I frankly admit that some of our changes were initially the result of misreadings and/or faulty memory, but they've ended up making sense. In fact, I cannot imagine how the Leadership feat would run if it was used by the book. To give you an idea of how different our Leadership is, I'll break it down for you (especially since I just got done with a session in which Leadership was in play).



  • The DMG 3.5 states that: "A character with this feat is the sort of individual others want to follow, and he or she has done some work attempting to recruit cohorts and followers" (106, emphasis added). While we keep to the first part of that sentence, active recruitment only does so much. My Leadership is indeed Charisma-based and has more to do with NPCs wanting to follow the PC than the PC making a laundry list of the types of people they want to serve them. It's a people-connection matter, not just a matter of business - and this is a major part of what distinguishes the Leadership feat from buying the services of hirelings.

    As I see it, hirelings are, generally speaking, just employees who perform a function and are loyal to the payment they're receiving. They can be as detailed as PCs but are easily as dry as cardboard because they aren't meant to be special. Followers and cohorts get paid as well but what makes them stick out is that they're people you want to know, and people who want to know you. They stand out and/or make themselves stand out through their attraction to the PC. Cohorts and followers aren't just acted upon by the PC but make the choice to devote their services to the PC, and they have their own reasons for doing so. Cohorts and followers are intensely - well, people. The DMG 3.5 alludes to this when it cautions that "Unlike other feats, this one depends heavily on the social setting of the campaign, the actual location of the PC, and the group dynamics."

    I see cohorts and followers as opportunities not just for plot hooks or profit, but for more personal contact between PCs and NPCs. This in turn supports the "reality" of the setting and the player's connection to it.


  • The 3.0 DMG specifies that a cohort is under the player's control, though the DM creates them. I tend to run cohorts since they are separate people, though they do keep an eye out for their PC leader and do what they're told most times. I also come up with the race, class, and other details for followers even though the 3.0 DMG says the leader can choose such things. Valefor often puts together great followers with backstories and everything.


  • I only allow characters to have one cohort apiece. So far we've stuck to the 3.0 rule that cohorts can be one level lower than the PC leader, so they're able to jump into combat if needed. This means that the PC leaders tend to keep their cohorts with them, even on the road; if they had more than one cohort, it would get insane quickly.


  • The DMG sets up Leadership so that eventually there will be too many low-level folowers to keep track of, let alone make special. It will become a matter of having a small army of folks at one's command. The inherent problem with this is that by the time you get to high levels in Leadership, a group of 15 or even 50 first level followers isn't going to do you much good on the battlefield. By that point, enemies will be throwing fireballs and there go all your followers. There are better feats to choose for higher-level combat effectiveness.

    But if those followers uphold a PC's reputation, act as a spy network, a messenger network, and/or a means of gaining steady income, they don't become worthless later on. They become a support structure for the PC in question, maybe even working at something the PC has built - a church, a stronghold, a business. They are also constantly open for plot threads.


  • Both DMGs specify that a PC's cohort score goes down by -2 per cohort killed. Neither DMG specifies that a PC gets more than a -1 for followers that are killed (plus another -1 for failure), no matter how many of them are slaughtered. But my players know that if low-level followers are taken into combat it is likely they will be killed, which will make it difficult to get new followers for some time. And a PC who keeps losing lots of followers, especially due to their own recklessness and/or disregard, is going to see a drop in their Leadership score. What's more, they tend to like their followers and want to keep them alive.

    Which leads me to a point: my players seem to like Leadership and to feel that it's worth it. One player took it, then another, and now a third. Valefor's paying for his people like hirelings but he could easily qualify for Leadership (he's been taking other feats, for which I don't blame him). They haven't complained about the feat either, nor have they steamrolled over obstacles because of it.



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What do you mean by this? I assume that as DM you role-play all the NPCs; I guess this isn't true? Or it is true, and your role-playing is so on-the-fly that you're not sure how you'll interpret them until you're in the spotlight?

I do roleplay the NPCs but they are not always what I think they're going to be. Quite a few pop into my head with their own personalities and I don't make any deliberate decision about it - it's just who they are. Morelia Elliriel, a very caustic half-elf whose mother left her for dead after her birth, came to me in such a way. I knew her bitter, distrustful, ironic way of speaking and it came naturally when she showed up; sometimes I couldn't believe the things she would say, but they fit perfectly. For some NPCs, I consider what I think they're going to be like but when they come to the fore, they end up differently. T'zara Volkos, the Thayan envoy trying to get a foothold in Thandell, wasn't easy to pin down. I knew that I wanted her to be rather open, diplomatic, but friendly beyond simple politeness - but I wasn't entirely sure how I was going to do that until I opened my mouth and she came out.
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Along those same lines, when there's a scene where it makes sense for NPCs to be having a dialogue the players are listening in on, how do you role-play this out?

I rely on a change of voice, tone, expression, accent, and so on. I try to differentiate my NPCs as much as I can, though it's hard. I also try to make sure that conversations don't go on for too long without PC input. I don't care how I sound most times.
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I remember this plot-line from a *long* time ago when you asked for advice about how to handle the weekend (I think it was a weekend) the PCs would be spending with marital candidates in an estate or manor. So this is that same campaign just now getting picked up eh? *whistles* No wonder you felt scatter-brained about it

Yes, same campaign, different year. I felt almost like a newbie this evening but it's been a while since I've run using d20 rules. I'm trying to get a handle on everything, not just all of the accumulated story, the billions of NPCs, the events to come, and the PC's new abilities and group dynamics, but also the system. I can get to an awesome level again but I'll need to work my way up to it, I think.
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