| On the topic of in-game cheating...; yup, another rant. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 1 2005, 03:34 PM (174 Views) | |
| Vacerious | Dec 1 2005, 03:34 PM Post #1 |
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Level 9 Nerd/9 Trashtalker
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Howdy everyone, Once again, the WizO boards is aflame with another hot new thread on cheating players. I believe that Kismet has already touched on a similar (if not more extreme) post in another board, but I still feel unjustified, and hence, would like to touch on the subject more. I'll admit that I powergame (or min/max, I'm not quite sure about the difference in those two terms). But to be fair, amongst the other players in my current group, I'm the only one that gives a shit about backstory or character concept. I just feel like that if I want to keep my character's story goin', I'm better off maximizing him to his full potential. After all, nobody wants to see a well-thought out character go down the toilet just because of one little flaw made during character creation. But I digress. What I would like to know is why somebody would cheat on a game like DnD, one built by trust? Also, what is up with the linient DM's these days? What happened to the ones that would use "Power Word: TPK" on anybody who cheated? I can see that people don't want to hurt their friends' feelings, but for the honor of the game, man, do something about it. What good are rules if nobody follows them? That's my two cents. Vacerious |
Disclaimer Warning: Parental Advisory (this poster contains strong language and many references to adult situations) It's not that I'm racist, sexist, or whatever. I'm just extremely allergic to idiots, and if your race/gender/(homo)sexual preference happens to contain a lot of idiots, then that's YOUR problem. | |
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| Aladdar | Dec 1 2005, 04:04 PM Post #2 |
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There Is No Member, Only Zule
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in the last game Fix actually ran we had a player who I caught cheating. Fix promptly held a group vote on kicking his ass to the curb which we did. I watched him several times make a roll and if Fix wasn't watching, flip the die over. It annoyed me to no end. I don't think that there's anything wrong with min maxing as long as it doesn't trump your character concept. People do it in real life. Weighlifters look at different substances they can take to get stronger, what kind of diet to eat, what types of weights to use. Musicians look at tons of different instruments, which effects work together better, which effects work together better with a certain guitar, and with a certain amp. When you go to school you're in effect min maxing, if I take this class, with this major I'll have a better chance of making this money. There's nothing wrong with min maxing, just don't devolve your character to nothing more than numbers on a sheet of paper however. |
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| kismetrose | Dec 1 2005, 04:39 PM Post #3 |
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It seems to me that a lot of cheating wouldn't happen if rolls were made where all of the other players and the DM could see. It also helps that, when you're running for a while, you take a look at everyone's character sheet to make sure they have the right amount of points. The guy in the thread you mentioned has an even worse situation than most because the cheater is the only one able to host their game and he cheats in more ways (like saying he has more hit points, and then revealing that he took a level adjustment when the DM didn't know about it). So if they piss him off, they're likely to lose their venue. As I was trying to say in the other thread, sometimes there are circumstances surrounding a situation that make dealing with it head-on, in a blunt fashion very, very difficult. At one point in my life I never thought I would say this, and I know others may not agree with me, but sometimes bluntness is NOT the best option. With a guy like the one described in the thread, it seems highly unlikely that honest confrontation is going to do much good. People like that try to worm their way out of it, even when cornered. And if they can't find anywhere else to hold their game, they will probably prefer other options. Why do people cheat in a game "built on trust"? Why does anyone violate trust, in any sense? Because it's what we humans do sometimes, even when it makes no sense, even when it will do a lot more harm than good. At one time or another, we have all violated someone's trust in us; even if it has been awhile, it's happened. Some folks figure out that they don't like to do that and refrain as much as possible from things like bad sportsmanship (which is what we used to call cheating in games when I was a little kid). Other folks still feel that they might be able to gain more than they lose. To answer your other question, Vacerious, rules are only worth as much as the force one is willing to put into defending their boundaries - but not all force is the type of force that first comes to mind, the in-your-face kind. There are many means of force, some of which are subtle. |
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Kismet's D&D - WoD - SG-1 - FB | |
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| Valefor | Dec 1 2005, 08:22 PM Post #4 |
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Ritual Partaker
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When I was a teenager, and I use to run, it was my way or the highway. If I caught you cheating, or if you didn't like any of my calls, or fuck, if I didn't think you were a good enough player I wouldn't hesitate to toss your ass out. But a lot of time has passed between then and now. The vast majority of people that I use to game with have moved (hell, I've moved five times since then), or stopped playing. I'm no longer surrounded by acquaintances that I can introduce into the game. Thus, the pool of players is very limited, and if you want to keep playing you’ll find yourself putting up with a lot shit that you never thought you would. In high school, its easy to blow people off. You're surrounded by hundreds, if not thousands of your peers, and you can always find someone else. But when you're older, it gets a lot harder to find new people to game with. Also, after you leave college and enter the work force, your spare time disappears. You find that you have very little spare time, and the few people that you're still able to see, you don't want to lose. Even if it means putting up with shit you can't stand, you're hesitant to risk the friendship, because it might mean ending several years of time and effort. Also, why do people cheat in D&D? Several reasons. Some people cheat because they don't want their character to die. Most gamers I've known have made a little white lie at one point or another for this reason. Maybe that rogue you've been playing for two years just rolled a two for his fort save vs. Disintegrate. If the only thing keeping your character from a premature death, after years of playing is saying you rolled a 12 instead of a 2, you can bet that it's going to be tempting. However, it's not the occasionally white lie to keep your character from dying that pissses people off. Most of the time people view cheating like this similar to the situation where the wife comes from work early, see her husband of twenty years fucking another woman, snaps, and kills them. Nobody says it's right, but when they see themselves in that situation its easy to have some empathy. No, it’s the constant, blatant cheaters that say they never roll under an 18 that pisses people off. And why do people do it? I don't know, but I have a theory. See, many people that play D&D have horrible self images. And in their mind, they fantasize about being perfect. And the randomness of dice rolling doesn't allow for that (and rightfully so). Thus they lie, so that their character, that representation of themselves that they wish they could be, can perform as they would like him/her to. Think about it, when you're watching a SCI-FI or fantasy show, doesn't it almost always look like the hero never rolls under a 15? How often does it look like Xena, Hercules, Buffy, Angel, or any other character like that roll a 1. Sure, the sidekicks might get their ass kicked every once in a while, but not the hero. And for many of those types of cheaters, that's what they want to be, the hero. Maybe not a hero in a paladin sense of the word, but the badass who always hits, never gets hit, and always has a funny, witty thing to say. Nobody wants to put up with a cheater, but when your option is putting up with a cheater, of going through a dry spell of no gaming for months, maybe years, it's suddenly easier to understand why people do it. Also, there are some relationships not worth damaging over a D&D game. If you've been friends with someone for ten years, or it's your spouse, or it’s a family member, it’s not worth losing that person over a game, any game. D&D is nice, but it will never beat sitting with an old good friend and having a beer, or being with family that you love and are love by, or the person you love laying in your arms. |
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| Fixxxer | Dec 1 2005, 11:29 PM Post #5 |
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Alcoholic Homosexual Giraffe
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They're actually two seperate things that can sometimes be related to each other. To min/max is to micromanage your stats, skills and the like to the most mechanically optimal combination, literally applying the maximum number you can to the good areas at the cost of having minimum numbers in the areas you don't consider that important. In and of itself, this is not a problem. The negative stigma attached to min/maxing comes from the fact that a great many people do it strictly for mechanical purposes and don't take the idea of roleplay into consideration at all. The most obvious example of this is the point buy created fighter that has high stats in Strength and Constitution, but a Charisma score of 3...yet somehow, the player still expects to be able to play him as a compassionate, likable guy. :rolleyes: Powergaming, on the other hand, is generally when one does everything he can to achieve the absolute best of everything, which usually isn't backed specifically by roleplaying. For instance, the fighter that upgrades the enhancement bonus on his weapon the nanosecond he gets enough money could be looked on as powergaming. A better example would be the fighter that absolutely has to have a greatsword, not because his PC concept requires it, but because the greatsword has the highest average damage of any weapon in the PHB. The negative stigma that comes attached to powetrgaming usually occurs when this desire for the biggest and best of everything bleeds over into metagame thinking and/or unreasonable power demands. A good example of this is the above fighter pressuring his DM to allow him to make his greatsword into a vorpal weapon, even though his PC lives in a no-magic area where spellcasters are literally unheard of and despite the fact that the PC is only level 4. Now you know...and knowing is good. YO JOE!
I'll not abide a cheater at my table. I'm glad everyone decided to kick him out, because I was simply going to disband the group and refuse to DM or play with Jon. Of course, that's esentially what happened anyhow, but that's beside the point.
Given a tiny pool of players, I would probably allow myself a tiny bit of slack as far as talking with an offending player and trying to stop his cheating. However, I've always believed that cheaters usually don't stop cheating, they just get better at hiding it, so I'm much more likely to simply not play. I'd rather not play my beloved game than become bitter about being forced to play under horrible conditions. That's probably just me, though. |
| In my mind, it is that simple. But then, I'm simple minded. -Didge- | |
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| kismetrose | Dec 1 2005, 11:53 PM Post #6 |
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There are plenty of folks who would agree with you. For myself, I would rather play than not. And I am willing to put forth effort to bring people together to play. I have had to deal with a lot of shit over the years, even though I've gamed with friends, and it hasn't all been easy. I can be very good with people but I've had to tax myself. Nonetheless, when I look back over the two and half years of great gaming I would have missed if I hadn't been willing to bend, and flex, and compromise, I feel it would have been a damned shame to have lost all of that experience. But then again my notions have changed over time; I am not as prideful as I used to be, nor am I as absolute about many of my ideas. Maybe that hasn't been as harmful as I've feared.
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