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Is it cheating?
Tweet Topic Started: Oct 11 2005, 11:02 PM (694 Views)
kismetrose Oct 11 2005, 11:02 PM Post #1
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Once upon a time there was a player in our group who had a pesky girlfriend. Without getting into any of her other annoying traits, I wish to address one of interest to the gaming community.

She believed that characters being romantically interested in other characters was a form of cheating. I don't mean rules-cheating, where folks try to get ahead by manipulating numbers. I'm talking about adultery-cheating, where folks try to get ahead by manipulating other things.

Now, it didn't matter if one character was a PC and the other was an NPC - any interest between characters was cheating. It didn't matter how strongly or how mildly the interest was expressed. It also didn't matter if the interest was purely between the characters and not between the players - if you so much as batted an eye in the wrong way, it was cheating.

I can see why she would feel this way; I mean, she had to control just about everything else about his interactions with others, why not his gaming?

The troublesome thing is that I've heard other people express this same sort of sentiment. Most of them have been women, and many of them have been of the non-gamer variety. But there are gamers who feel this way. This bothers me, if only because it tends to put a strict leash on certain players.

I'm not saying that in-character attraction can't lead to out-of-character attraction; I know from personal experience that it can. But there is a line between real life and the world of the game. Attraction between characters is not the same as attraction between players. And if feeling attraction to someone else is cheating - if just feeling it is a crime, no action necessary - then everyone in a relationship is a cheater. It's just...ridiculous.

Have you run into this way of thinking?
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Cunning Linguist Oct 12 2005, 12:14 AM Post #2
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I've seen posts on the WotC boards mentioning these sorts of issues but never experienced it in any of my games. I'd have to say that anybody who is unable to distinguish between their PCs feelings or actions and the player's feelings or actions aught not to be playing D&D. It's a fantasy game. I'm no more my character than Cary Elwes is the Dread Pirate Roberts. D&D has a bad enough wrap without these types of people adding their personal paranoia.
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Cantankerous Oct 12 2005, 12:36 AM Post #3
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Yep, unfortunately. Also, unfortunately, there CAN be something to it.

There are alot of immature gamers out there. Walking hormone vessels who look (and are) twenty or thirty something in body and half that age in self control and responsibility. I had a conversation with my ex (not ex at the time) wife about this, explaining to her that the group I DMed for was beyond the kiddie stage and knew the difference. She, being more attuned than I was to reading other women didn't buy it in the context of two of the five members of my present game group. Ohh boy, you gotta hate it when you're blind, deaf and stupid and your mate gets to "I told you so."

Donna, (my ex) usually gamed with me, but she had a six month stint running the Nurses on the second shift (4pm to midnight) for the ICU at the hospital she worked at, so we had a long break from gaming together. The situation in question I should have seen brewing, but the young woman in question was a superlative gamer who I thought was JUST playing in character, a self confessed lesbian (as was her character) and the NPC I was running was male (although he, the NPC really was almost desperately hitting on her) thinking it a lost cause. Yep, I bet you see where this is going.

At the time I was DMing at a mutual friends house as my group was far flung, some driving more than an hour to get to HIS house and I was as well, from the opposite direction, so it was simply more convenient. To make a long story shorter, after yet another session where the witty reparte was flying, I packed up, grabbed the bag, went out to my car and got in and from the back seat I hear the young woman in question say something like:

"If Johanus were to find Denierra in his room, in his bed, like this, what would he do?"

When I finally looked into my backseat (if she'd have been a mugger I'd have been a corpse by then... always check your back seat) she was stark naked and trembling (a thing that is more of a aphrodisiac to a man than the sexiest perfume made). "I've never wanted to do this with a guy before. Please don't say no."



I have never been so put on the spot in my life before. Here I am, a self professed social revolutionary. My wife an I had an open relationship... but one founded on trust. We played around, but we played together ONLY, never without the others knowledge and consent before hand. I was an outspoken disparager of monogamy (at the time; now my wife Sandra and I are completely monogamus and all the happier for it) who had actually appeared on a couple of local talk shows to defend the ideal of open sexuality, but within the framework of trust. Now, with all this said, I have a naked young woman in my back seat who's probably taken that and gestalted it with my completely and total IN CHARACTER flirting and read it as a come on. Dear God, what now?

I very seldom lie. I'm not good at it. But I was so startled I tried. I told her that presently I had a really bad Prostate infection and I was afraid I wouldn't be much good to her.

Trembling harder, starting to cry and now reaching towards me. "But screwing isn't ALL of sex."

Stupid, ignorant asshole. Lying will always blow up in yourt face.

I backed out of the car fast telling her I couldn't... not just then, maybe another time. I felt like what I was just then, the idiot of all idiots. She quickly got her clothes on, got out, stammered an apology and RAN off. Needless to say, I never saw her again and when her friend who had brought her into the group tried to find out what the hell was up, she wouldn't talk to him anymore either. Hell, she ended up moving away, I feel sure, mainly because of embarassment. It was the single worst experience I've ever had connected with gaming.

Now, before I begin a campaign, in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS, I lay out the facts about the seperation between IC and OoC behavior and even though it's not really probably necessary, without any names involved, I tell this story. ALWAYS, the one time you don't do it, is the one time you should have. It should be a correlary to Murphy's Law.



Isshia
For example, the crucifix. While it has been a time honored symbol of our faith, Holy Mother Church has decided to retire this highly recognizable, yet wholly depressing image of our Lord crucified. ... And it is with that take on our Lord in mind that we've come up with a new, more inspiring sigil. ...I give you... The Buddy Christ. Now that's not the sanctioned term we're using for the symbol, just something we've been kicking around the office, but look at it. Doesn't it... pop? Buddy Christ.
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kismetrose Oct 12 2005, 01:02 AM Post #4
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Whoa, Isshia. What a story to tell. :o

I myself have been on both sides of this gaming situation. I too was in an open relationship at the time (not that it really helped anything), and when we went out to visit folks we gamed with, the in-character flirting went far beyond the game. Suffice it to say that I did not walk away from those opportunities, but the reprocussions made my life tumultuous for half a year.

Years later, I played with a husband and wife in a larger gaming group. I liked them both. The thing was, Mr. Hubby had found a new young chick to play with and there was all sorts of sexual tension between the two. The wife wasn't around during these sessions, or if she was, she was too busy taking care of her kid to notice much (although I still wonder about that).

Eventually, Mr. Hubby and the chick made plans to meet and told me all about it - including the ways that they were planning to lie to his wife so they could meet alone together. They blankly seemed to think that nothing was going to happen; they were only lying so they could meet as friends without "the wife" breathing down their necks.

Of course for me it was like watching a train-wreck in slow motion and I begged them both not to continue - to be honest to his wife so he could divorce first. But no, no one ever listens to me. :argh:

They ended up meeting, fucking, and Mr. Hubby ended up packing all his shit while his wife was at work and leaving her alone with her kid and their bills. And then they showed up on my doorstep as if I would be happy!

But I digress. A lot of this sort of thing seems to happen in games like Vampire; I haven't seen it as much in D&D. I have to say that even though geeks play Vampire too, Vampire players don't tend to sit around as the stereotypical virgin gamers for long. Vampire gamers get laid. You could put it on a t-shirt.

Still, I don't feel that in-character banter is cheating. The trouble starts when the banter leads to out-of-character actions. And if someone is uncomfortable they should say something, especially if it is their boyfriend/girlfriend involved. Until then, it should just be a part of the game - another plot hook.
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Cantankerous Oct 12 2005, 08:22 AM Post #5
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Both games, actually any game played by over sexed adults, can devolve easily into this sort of thing. My first wife and I ACTIVELY used D&D (actually AD&D back then) as a .... recruiting method... for group experimentation back when we were in college. I talked about this breifly before on the WotC Mature Boards.

THAT was a fiasco. It probably did more to damage our relationship than anything else did. My wife and I now both come from that same kind of background and have both withdrawn from it. I don't outright condemn it, but it's hard man, hard. It requires far more than trust and maturity. It requires an ability to turn off some of the most basic instincts, some of which shouldn't be turned off perhaps.

Anyway, Sandra and I still love swingers clubs and Vienna is famous for them, but we only actually have sex with each other... we're just both exhibitionist enough to still like the scene itself... and the buffet our favorite club lays out is almost worth it by itself. Besides, who knows, if we meet a nice girl and the chemistry is right...

The point though, now that I've digressed enough, is to never assume that the level of maturity is high enough. It isn't entirely a maturity issue. It's also a an experience issue.

But as games go... it's Poke-gamers that never get laid. Everybody else has a fair chance, role play opens doors in the soul and burys inhibitions faster than pot.



Isshia
For example, the crucifix. While it has been a time honored symbol of our faith, Holy Mother Church has decided to retire this highly recognizable, yet wholly depressing image of our Lord crucified. ... And it is with that take on our Lord in mind that we've come up with a new, more inspiring sigil. ...I give you... The Buddy Christ. Now that's not the sanctioned term we're using for the symbol, just something we've been kicking around the office, but look at it. Doesn't it... pop? Buddy Christ.
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Didge Oct 12 2005, 09:13 AM Post #6
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A different take on things, if you will.

Although I lack the stories of strange behavior (in this matter, at least) in regards to D&D, I have had, and have now in my current relationship, similar problems regarding this issue, but not in the D&D sense.

I'm very outgoing nowadays, wherein as a youth I was extremely introverted. As such, I tend to flirt (albeit sometimes too much) with women now, but nothing overtly so, especially if they are involved with someone. A smile here, a nod there, and basically treating women as I'd like them to treat me. I've had ex-girlfriends get extremely upset over this because they thought that I was "cheating." Hell, I dated one girl who thought anytime I looked at another girl that I was, "cheating." :rolleyes: The thing is their definition and mine of, "cheating" were extremely different. I thought I was being friendly, while they thought I was trying to woo this other woman into attempting to steal me away from them. To me, (and I know a lot of guys say this, but I mean it) there is a huge difference between making love to someone I care about and well...satisfying a physical desire to just have sex. It has taken me most of my adult life to figure this out, and I'm still just learning about my own wants/needs in relationships. Something that has been proving slightly problematic in regards to my current relationship. But that's neither here nor there.

I agree with Isshia in that it requires far more than trust and maturity to be in any sort of open relationship, however they want to define what degree of, "open-ness" they are willing to commit to. People may say they are ready for something of this nature, but when presented with it, upfront and in person, they suddenly become either emotionally, or physically challenged by the situation and are unprepared for how the event(s) may play out.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that individuals in loving, caring relationships have to trust one another. If they can't, then they shouldn't be in the relationship to begin with. I have nothing against those who make arrangements up front in regards to where the boundries are in the relationship, or where they think it'll go and not go...these are important to discuss. However, don't just assume your partner is always in agreement with you, or vice versa. Remember, communication is key.
When you're making an Adventure, remember to ask, "WWMPD" (What Would My Player's Do?) Then tailor your adventure around that.
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Fixxxer Oct 12 2005, 11:07 AM Post #7
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I have never cheated on my wife...and I never will. Neither of us has a problem with occasionally inviting another woman to bed with us, but I'd hardly call it anything resembling cheating when you're both willing participants. What I do when I play D&D is called roleplaying. I'm not having some sort of invisible sexual relationship with another person...I'm just playing a part. When the game session is over, I'm not holding any sort of emotional feeling towards the other person.

My wife and I trust each other completely. If I was ever with a woman that told me I couldn't roleplaying in D&D because that was cheating, I would leave her right then and there. You are supposed to love and trust your spouse...not control them. My wife would never try anything of the sort with me and I wouldn't with her. That's called trust.

Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that there are plenty of horny people out there that see someone roleplaying a sexy character, get turned on and try to take that above and beyond the game. However, those people are cheating. The rest of us that are just roleplaying our character are not.
In my mind, it is that simple. But then, I'm simple minded. -Didge-
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kismetrose Oct 12 2005, 01:57 PM Post #8
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Cantankerous
 
Both games, actually any game played by over sexed adults, can devolve easily into this sort of thing.

Um, don't forget teenagers; they can be oversexed too. This whole thing started for me at 17.
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Everybody else has a fair chance, role play opens doors in the soul and burys inhibitions faster than pot.

I think one of the reasons for that is the level of social interaction. You're spending how many hours in a room with someone every week? That's a lot of exposure and people can feel that they get to know one another through games (whether they actually do or not is up to debate).
Didge
 
The thing is their definition and mine of, "cheating" were extremely different.

The definition of what is cheating seems to be at stake here. And the difference between what one person thinks is cheating and what another person thinks is cheating is also at stake. The player I originally spoke about - I don't think he believed for a second that in-character interactions were cheating, but his girlfriend certainly did. The old question, I guess, is how much is considered cheating before social interactions become impossible? We don't see this player much anymore because he is never, EVER without his girlfriend.
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I guess the point I'm trying to make is that individuals in loving, caring relationships have to trust one another. If they can't, then they shouldn't be in the relationship to begin with.

That's a wonderfully idealistic statement, but I'm not sure it's as simple as that. Trust is not an easy thing for the average human. It seems to be in our nature to suspect things and to suspect each other, at least on some level. Trying to bridge the distance is what relationships are often about - trying to trust someone as much as possible. Rarely is it complete trust, and even solid trust can be betrayed.
Fixxxer
 
What I do when I play D&D is called roleplaying. I'm not having some sort of invisible sexual relationship with another person...I'm just playing a part. When the game session is over, I'm not holding any sort of emotional feeling towards the other person.

That is a excellently put. Something about the invisible sexual relationship fits in this issue.

But, as a general question: Aren't most of our characters expressions of ourselves, at least in some way? Are we really only playing a part, completely detached, or do we find ourselves playing something close to the chest, something that matters in some small way when the game is over? Is there always a complete separation?

And isn't that part of the whole problem? The player and his girlfriend that I first mentioned come in here. As far as I could tell, she did not understand the concept of playing a role in D&D; as far as she was concerned, it was her boyfriend that was involved and no other. And at the very least, even if her boyfriend was pretending to be someone else, he would be behind the scenes, making the decisions. She seemed to think that any expression of interest on his part meant that he was expressing a hidden desire to cheat.
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Didge Oct 12 2005, 02:47 PM Post #9
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The thing is their definition and mine of, "cheating" were extremely different.



The definition of what is cheating seems to be at stake here. And the difference between what one person thinks is cheating and what another person thinks is cheating is also at stake.


Yeah, I agree. Is looking at porn for example, considered, "cheating?" I've known women who think this is the case. I don't agree with it, and view it as appreciating the human body. I can appreciate a guy that is cut just as much as I can a women who is well defined. The human body is a very sexy thing when toned and shaped in all the right places (and even then, it isn't a necessity) IMHO, no matter the gender. But again, I'm probably sharing too much again.

K
 
me
 
 
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that individuals in loving, caring relationships have to trust one another. If they can't, then they shouldn't be in the relationship to begin with.



That's a wonderfully idealistic statement, but I'm not sure it's as simple as that.


Well, I suppose it depends on the individuals involved. In my mind, it is that simple. But then, I'm simple minded...hey, wait a minute. <_<

When you're making an Adventure, remember to ask, "WWMPD" (What Would My Player's Do?) Then tailor your adventure around that.
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kismetrose Oct 12 2005, 02:57 PM Post #10
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Well, I suppose it depends on the individuals involved. In my mind, it is that simple. But then, I'm simple minded...hey, wait a minute.

:lol: Actually, I'm probably just too jaded for my own good. I would have given the same answer you did in the past. I might come to feel that way again.
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Fixxxer Oct 12 2005, 03:07 PM Post #11
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kismetrose
Oct 12 2005, 03:57 PM
But, as a general question: Aren't most of our characters expressions of ourselves, at least in some way? Are we really only playing a part, completely detached, or do we find ourselves playing something close to the chest, something that matters in some small way when the game is over? Is there always a complete separation?

Sure, they're extensions of ourselves. That doesn't mean that I am my PC or that he is me. There are certainly things that are memorable enough to be retained emotionally beyond the actual game session itself, but I think it takes a really convoluted person to approach on of the other players and start a probing conversation that basically boils down to "Hey, I thought your PC and my PC had a moment there. You wanna go in the back and fuck for a while?"

Here's where things get a little...deep into the "Oh, shit! Too much information, Fixxxer!" catagory. When I'm alone, in the mood and all over myself, I'm either directly looking at pornography or thinking of situations that would easily be labeled as pornography if others could see them. I'm roleplaying myself as a participant in these pornographic situations. I imagine this is true for a great many people besides myself. However, despite that I was roleplaying myself in a sexual situation with Jennifer Connolly, Lindsey Lohan, Sarah Michelle Geller, Anna Kournikova, the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders and the entire guest list of a Playboy Mansion party, I don't consider myself to be cheating on my wife. That just doesn't make sense. When you drive past a great house and momentarilly imagine how nice it would be to live in a place like that, you're not cheating on your house, are you? The key word in all of this is imagine.
In my mind, it is that simple. But then, I'm simple minded. -Didge-
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Jagyr Ebonwood Oct 12 2005, 03:15 PM Post #12
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People who think that way bug me...in a way, I'd understand if someone said "It makes me feel uncomfortable and unsure of our relationship to each other when ~this~ happens. Please don't do it anymore."
But when someone blatantly calls it "cheating", that really irks me.

And personally, I don't think it's a big deal. I've been in the world of theatre too long now to get caught up on things that happen in character. If my SO is in a play and the script calls for a stage kiss, who am I to get uppity and try to usurp the production?
There was one time where I was in a situation kind of like that, and I didn't feel comfortable during a scene of heavy flirting involving my (now ex)girlfriend and an actor I didn't particularly care for. I always left the room during that scene. I know that it was innocent (at least from the actor's side...I've since had doubts about my ex...), but it still made me feel weird.
But I'm over that kind of thing now.

Hell, my PC has a love (okay, more like lust) interest in my uncle's campaign. Granted, it doesn't go much deeper than "Serrek and Mylo head off to a secluded wooded area alone for a couple hours to, um...hunt. Yeah, that's it..." (which is a good summary of their relationship), but even so, the fact that my PC and his NPC have a "thing" doesn't mean I wanna do my uncle. :crazy:
"Yea, and word unto thee. Pray, money, art thou down with OPP? Verilly thus? For I desire to do the nasty with thine ho, as I tire of doing mine own ho in mine own crib, a most fly one at that." -Fixxxer
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Jagyr Ebonwood Oct 12 2005, 03:18 PM Post #13
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Fixxxer
Oct 12 2005, 06:07 PM
...the entire guest list of a Playboy Mansion party...

Ahem.
*Reminds Fixxxer that most guest lists for mansion parties are about 75% male, at least*
I thought your swing was one directional, buddy. :P

But I agree on the "PC as an extension of self" issue.
Every part we play has a little of us in it. That's what makes it a fun character. One of the funnest (that's right, I said funnest. Whatcha gonna do?) parts I ever played was a Harker/Renfield character in an adaptation of Stoker's Dracula . At one point, I coughed up feathers onto the audience, good times, good times...
But even though all our characters are part of us, doesn't mean that the two are synonymous...I don't really eat live birds. As far as you know.

But there are always the people who fuck up our perfectly good theories by playing themselves as characters, and everything they do is an extension of what they themselves want...stupid n00bs.*


*Note: N00bs in this case is used purely in a derogative fashion. It does not suggest that these problem playes are neophytes in any way, as they can just as easily be oldtimers.
"Yea, and word unto thee. Pray, money, art thou down with OPP? Verilly thus? For I desire to do the nasty with thine ho, as I tire of doing mine own ho in mine own crib, a most fly one at that." -Fixxxer
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kismetrose Oct 12 2005, 03:31 PM Post #14
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I think it takes a really convoluted person to approach on of the other players and start a probing conversation that basically boils down to "Hey, I thought your PC and my PC had a moment there. You wanna go in the back and fuck for a while?

But people do, Fixxxer - people do have such conversations.
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The key word in all of this is imagine.

I agree, but it does seem to be imagination that is part of the trouble here. Some folks don't want their partners imagining about other people, and roleplaying is all about imaginging.
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Fixxxer Oct 12 2005, 03:37 PM Post #15
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Jagyr Ebonwood
Oct 12 2005, 05:18 PM
*Reminds Fixxxer that most guest lists for mansion parties are about 75% male, at least*
I thought your swing was one directional, buddy. :P

Oh, it is...but I'm only one man, and that's a whooooole lotta women to please. I figured I'd needs some help. :D
In my mind, it is that simple. But then, I'm simple minded. -Didge-
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