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What is wrong with homebrew people?
Tweet Topic Started: Jul 15 2005, 04:55 PM (593 Views)
kismetrose Jul 15 2005, 04:55 PM Post #1
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I have some admiration for people who put the effort into making their own homebrewed worlds/settings. It takes a hell of a lot of work, and a lot of it isn't easy.

That being said...

Most homebrewers I've met who've made their own worlds/settings have been very obsessive and arrogant about it.

They've gone on and on about how their worlds are different from anything that has EVER BEEN DONE BEFORE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH BY ANY MAN'S HANDS. Never mind that there's nothing new under the sun and their own ideas can be traced to various recognizable inspirations. No! It must be 100% original!

They have been ready at the drop of a hat to go into every detail of their creation at the hint of the faintest interest.

They have automatically assumed that their players (or maybe all players) would love it. More to the point, players MUST love it, because changing it really isn't what the creator wants to do.

And they are much better than any other DM because they've made their own world. It's not just that they understand the rules more (which they probably do from having had to examine them so much) - they are just elite and special.

Maybe it's that level of absorption that is necessary to keep a person working on such a big project over the length of time that it takes. Maybe after such effort the pride just gets bigger and bigger until it can't be controlled. And I realize that not every homebrewer is this way; I haven't met every gamer, after all. It's just that I keep seeing folks like this, so much that I have come to wonder where the calmer homebrewers are.

To tell the truth, the attitude has always made me a bit sick and tired of the people and their products. When I hear homebrewers say certain phrases warning bells go off in my head and I tend to make my exit from that part of the conversation. It's almost like when people tell me that they LARP Vampire. After a while, patterns emerge and you know what to expect.

So does anyone know any saner homebrewers? Is it just me who runs into these strange folks? It wouldn't be the first time - Jesus nuts used to pick me out of a crowd to preach to.
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Fixxxer Jul 15 2005, 07:56 PM Post #2
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Obviously, you haven't seen MY homebrew. It's completely unique and no one has EVER done anything remotely like it. Worship me!

:D
In my mind, it is that simple. But then, I'm simple minded. -Didge-
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Hexeter Jul 17 2005, 08:27 PM Post #3
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As near as I can tell the difference between a Homebrew DM and a Pre-Packaged DM is almost like the difference between someone who's a Vegan and someone that's just a Vegetarian. Not to insult either group but it's something of an 'Elitism' issue that comes from the maturity of the individual in question.

I've yet to meet a DM in my personal experience that has not aspired to create their own world and follow in the footsteps of people like Gary Gygax and Ed Greenwood. When I created my first world I was so proud of it I admit it was all I could talk about and when people did not show as much interest in it as I had there was a bit of ego-bruising.

I wouldn't worry too much about hurting the feelings of people like that by not showing interest in their games. They just need to learn that because they think their idea is all that and a bag of chips does not mean that everyone else does and your reaction (vocal or not) is actually just what they need to help them realize that they aren't a pioneer in their field.

I am at the point in my gaming now where I have a world that I have put together which I use. I use the term "put together" specifically because I harvest my ideas from other places quite often. My schools of sorcery are inspired by those of the DragonLance setting, the general attitude of people towards sorcery and the unknown is taken from the novels of the Forgotten Realms, the nations of the other races are taken from the old Gazetteer series that came out for the Basic D&D setting. It took alot of work on my part to stitch all the sections together into a world that worked and I have since created several of my own areas to go with them but I make no claims as to original content save for NPCs and some adventure areas.

I guess we just have to have some patience with the up and comers who are too eager for their own good :)
Among the long shadows live I, living the lies and destroying the light.
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HollowDes Aug 19 2005, 02:34 AM Post #4
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Although this is not my first post (I posted a short intro in "DM Concerns") this thread is what originally compelled me to register.

Why? With the hope of providing, um, hope. :P I am a homebrewer, and not strictly by choice. Money, erm, lack thereof, is the main reason, but I, like many DMs, also like to tell my own story. I would like to *think* I'm not like the individuals you described. In fact, I might be the complete opposite. Having read fantasy novels since as long as I can remember, it's as you have all stated, nearly impossible to not be influenced by pre-existing sources. Wait, by definition, isn't an influence...doh! ><

Uh, back on topic. I'm quite aware of several of my influences, and often worry that my players will accuse me of "rip-offs". To this extent, I suppose I get a little OCD, and try really hard to break certain stereotypes and be as original as possible, but have no delusions of grandeur either. A quote I saw somewhere around here summed it up perfectly:

Nothing is original anymore. The only thing original are the never-ending variations.

I don't think that's the exact wording, but I hope that captures the essence. I'm actually right now in the middle of co-authoring my 2nd homebrew with a friend, and we're having a blast. Our audience is mostly comprised of the middle schoolers at the youth center I work at, and we're loving their lack of higher education :P

We quite blatantly rip certain themes or ideas from other worlds or genres (such as the Warcraft universe), especially real world history, but do not really feel guilty about doing so. There is SO much literature and fantasy in existence, I don't feel there are any "original" themes, just generic ones that are inevitable logical conclusions and possibilities. Movies definitely do not help. I swear to someone's deity that not a single one of the twerps would know who Legolas was if it weren't for the movies. :angry:

Let me backtrack that tangent for a second...oh yea! *blush*

While I certainly feel that I'm allowed to be proud of my creation, because it is a god-awful amount of work, and it is a creative extension of myself, it's just one of countless insignificant interpretations of a fantasy setting. To prove I'm human, a little part of me does die every time someone catches onto and makes sure to verbalize any influences they recognize.

I don't know why this irks me so, but I don't think it's a pride thing, so much as a, "thanks for attempting to despoil my attempt at creativity." I often want to challenge these louts to create a 110% original homebrew.

Edit: My arrogance as a homebrewer might be in question, but me being long-winded certainly is not :lol:
Sleep...oh, how I loathe those little slices of death. - Longfellow
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kismetrose Aug 19 2005, 03:27 AM Post #5
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All right, Hollow, you got me laughing at 3:17 in the morning while I'm trying half-heartedly to finish my studying for the night. I'm glad you're long winded, and pretty fun to read, to boot.

I don't care, personally, that people are influenced by other sources. I actually think it's inevitable and a good thing. I don't mind that people reuse ideas in their creative projects; we're all reusing ideas, really. What I do mind are folks who get all puffed up and pissy because their home-brew isn't 100% unique. I also hate their denial of having ever been influenced by anyone or anything. It's just lying. It's hypocrisy, conceit. You can make something that feels new by putting old pieces together in a different configuration. But to believe one's creation is beholden to no predecessor is just - well, you know. :P

I can understand why it takes a little wind out of your sails, to have people recognize various parts of your homebrew as coming from somewhere else. But you don't sound obsessive about it.

You don't sound nearly so bad as some of the homebrewers I've seen and subsequently wanted to strangle. I even think it's cool that you're working on homebrew stuff for monetary reasons. I'm a college student living in Los Angeles County, so I know what it is to scrimp and save. Necessity is the mother of invention, though, and I'm glad that you're taking the chance to be creative.

So, what's this new homebrew about/like?
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HollowDes Aug 19 2005, 01:45 PM Post #6
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Thanks for the compliments *^^*

Fortunately, I have not had the displeasure of meeting an individual like you describe. I could see myself fervently arguing with such a person for as long as either of us could stand that there's no way they can have a 100% original campaign setting. Absolute ludicrous.

I too am a college student attending the University of Arizona. Hello, fellow poverty stricken student :)

Uh oh. Did you just ask what I think you asked? Well, if your eyes are bleeding at the end of this post, I'm sorry, but you did ask. :P

While we still have a lot in our heads, I'll share what we've got in writing that we agree upon.

Over-arching theme/conflict:

Six Gods and Godesses use their worshippers to enact their will in a contest for dominion. The Gods are embodiments of two Elder Gods, whom live vicariously through their children. A battle between the Surface and the Underdark is about to explode as the campaign begins.

Important I note here: I am vaguely familiar with Forgotten Realms. I've heard of Drizzt, and the Harpers, and someone called Elminster, but that's all I know. Never played in it, DMed with it, nor read any of the novels. My co-author friend has read several of the books, but swears to me that the conflict is mainly between the Dwarves and Duergar.

We're co-authoring this setting, with me designing the bulk of the surface world, and him doing the Underdark. He wants to run an Underdark campaign that happens simultaneosly in history to one I run on the surface. We'll probably end up with two unique parties for each, and the potential for conflict between the two is something we're keeping in mind.

Cosmology:

Two Elder Gods, whom we call "Father" and "Mother" at the moment. Father believes life should constantly evolve and progress to be self-sufficient, even violently at times if necessary. (CG alignment) Mother believes the strong have a right to prey on the weak, and the weak are meant to be oppressed. (LE) They give birth to a world and their first son, the God of Nature. He aspires to please his parents by striking a balance between their desires, and begins filling the world with various flora and fauna. The result of his efforts is a harmonious natural paradise in perfect equilibrium. Evolution occurs as the weak fall prey to survival of the fittest, but both happen slowly of their own accord. Both parents are disappointed, and abandon their son as a disgrace.

They agree to an indirect contest of wills to prove that their philosiphies are superior to one another's. They each asexually produce three offspring that embody the essence of themselves. From their minds, hearts, and bodies, six more God children are born. From Father comes (names not final) The Judge (LN), The Healer (NG) and The Valiant (LG), and from Mother there is The Tyrant (NE), The Craftsman (CN) and The Torturer (CE). Father and Mother made a mistake however; they failed to realize that their children would have free will, and would not necessarily pursue the will of their parents. Mother and Father were torn, but saw that their children would further their own desires in different ways, so forbade their children from directly confronting one another, giving them the blessing of creation before leaving for the Cosmos to observe how their creation would pan out.

That's about as far as we've gotten so far. We know these other random facts:

* The Elder Gods communicate with the Gods through angel/celestial and demon/devil agents. The appearance of one of these creatures is always cause to make any God nervous, for the purpose of the visits is to often remind a God or Godess that they are about to cross a line that Mommy and Daddy are wagging their finger at.

* The Elder Gods are omnipotent, the Gods are not. We're modelling our concept off of Greek mythology, but are making a consciouss effort to not fall into stereotypes. For example, I'm responsible for designing The Tyrant, The Judge, and The Torturerer. The Tyrant and Torturerer are both going to be female, hoping to add that little sexy twist to their God-like cruelty. The Tyrant is very vain and uses her priesthood to have enormous temples and statues erected for her. The Torturerer, also called the Godess of Pain, seeks to invoke the fear of death into mortals, and demands constant, torturous ritual sacrifice. Her armies and priesthood are known for their brutal killing tactics, and death at their hands is successfully feared.

* The Elder Gods are a "secret" of our campaign. The players might never learn of their existence.

* Although we only present six gods, there are probably going to be multiple religions. The Torturerer will certainly have at least two facets to her priesthood that disagree on religious doctrine.

* Elves are not pansies, dwarves are not fat. I curse the LotR movies for putting this idea into the heads of our youthful players, and we're going to try very hard to break them of this. For example:

* There's going to be a faction of secretive druids who worship the extremely neutral God of Nature, and wish to cause a natural global extinction to wipe the slate clean for him. They will be working from the beginning of the campaign to manipulate the six gods into warring with each other heavily to set the stage for their chaotic climax. A vast majority of these druids will be elves, who are not happy with the state of the world. Elves have never been so haughty :P And these Elves are mean sons of bitches. We're going to heavily work a culture out of their swordsmanship, and have histories that speak of a time when elves walked amongst the other races freely.

* Character creation will be done as a whole party, for the sake of cohesiveness. Elves will only be a playable race if there are no dwarves, gnomes, or humans in the intended party. We realize this will not be easy to rule on, but our players are young and pretty open-minded. Besides, they all want to play, and if playing means they can't play an elf unless most others do, so be it :P

* Humans are our "Jews" of the world. I'm not trying to be offensive here; if you've ever studied the history of the Jews, it's sad enough to make the stiffest person at least get watery-eyed. They were slaves to everyone and their moms, constantly moved and persecuted left and right with no home until the 1950s when they declared Israel their country. The humans will have a long heritage as slaves in the Underdark, and there are old stories of some humans escaping the Underdark. They are blind, wispy haired, and often stark-raving mad. Humans will be a playable race on the surface, but are treated just a teensy bit better than animals, and do not have a home of any kind. "Please take your human outside." wouldn't be uncommon to hear in many towns. My friend tells me has no intention of making them a playable race in the Underdark. We don't want to discourage playing humans. Humans actually have a great potential to commit heroic deeds to make a name for themselves. We just want to portray them differently.

I think that's about it. If you find this interesting and would like me to update this thread, or create a new one for it as we work, I wouldn't mind humoring anyone :) Doing this has been helpful for me to realize what we really know and don't so far. I know there are a lot of common themes here to other sources and settings, but this has all been the product of a few brainstorming sessions. We don't look around for influences, we have enough in our heads already. This is kind of high-fantasy, mid-magic, and I realize some of it might be cliche'. Oh well, we're enjoying ourselves so far, and we need a setting, dammit! :lol:


Sleep...oh, how I loathe those little slices of death. - Longfellow
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kismetrose Aug 19 2005, 04:35 PM Post #7
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I too am a college student attending the University of Arizona. Hello, fellow poverty stricken student

Hail! We shall start our own geeky gaming fraternity (since I usually count as one of the guys somehow). Just need a good name for it...
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Two Elder Gods, whom we call "Father" and "Mother" at the moment. Father believes life should constantly evolve and progress to be self-sufficient, even violently at times if necessary. (CG alignment) Mother believes the strong have a right to prey on the weak, and the weak are meant to be oppressed. (LE) They give birth to a world and their first son, the God of Nature...Both parents are disappointed, and abandon their son as a disgrace.

I really get a kick out of this part. Fucking disappointing kids! They never turn out the way you intend! LOL
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The Tyrant and Torturerer are both going to be female, hoping to add that little sexy twist to their God-like cruelty.

I hope that there will be some positive, powerful females in your setting, as well.
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Elves will only be a playable race if there are no dwarves, gnomes, or humans in the intended party.

Are there any other races you're considering as part of the core races for your setting?
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The humans will have a long heritage as slaves in the Underdark, and there are old stories of some humans escaping the Underdark.

I was just thinking that you might want to consider the cultures that slave populations develop. Slaves in captivity, and slaves that are freed - they've all been through a lot and come to depend on each other to survive. I remember when I first learned about black slaves singing songs in codes to communicate to one another, those sad, lovely songs; for some reason that detail always touches me. You might want to think about how humans interact, where they might cluster together.
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This is kind of high-fantasy, mid-magic, and I realize some of it might be cliche'. Oh well, we're enjoying ourselves so far, and we need a setting, dammit!

Hey, no need for apologies. You need a setting and are going out of your way to make one, and you've only just begun. It's all good. My advice is that once you're done with the gods and early formation, think about what they're going to mean to the people on the planet. Fit people into the scheme of things so that the gods will feel important to them.
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Fixxxer Aug 20 2005, 09:03 AM Post #8
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(since I usually count as one of the guys somehow)

<Smarmy British Accent> Suddenly I feel so delightfully ho-mo-seeexual.</SBA>

:D
In my mind, it is that simple. But then, I'm simple minded. -Didge-
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HollowDes Aug 20 2005, 10:14 AM Post #9
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*a man in a white button-up shirt and white slacks, with a black leather belt that his belly hangs over, runs up to you panting heavily. He has a large bundle of rope draped around one arm that ends in a lasso*

"Excuse...me... *huff*... have you seen an an alcoholic homosexual giraffe pass through here?"

"No?"

"Damn that sneaky giraffe."
Sleep...oh, how I loathe those little slices of death. - Longfellow
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kismetrose Aug 20 2005, 03:50 PM Post #10
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't think I'm ready to read this first thing after waking up!
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Mordien Aug 21 2005, 06:15 AM Post #11
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:D Well that was a bit to ...eeh comic reading to start with
but it was fun and woke me up
All warfare is based on Deception


MORDIEN
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Didge Aug 23 2005, 10:51 AM Post #12
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Why I've built nothing but Homebrew, darnit.

The first one I built sank into the swamp. The second, also sank into the swamp. The third one I built, burned, fell over, and then sank into the swamp. But the Fourth Homebrew...well it's still standing...sort-of. ;)


Seriously though I agree with you HollowDes. I get lots of my ideas from all fantasy/sci-fi novels that I've read. For example, one of my areas, the "wildlands" has a great deal of culture/sociology which I've "creatively borrowed" from J.V. Jones book, A Cavern of Black Ice.

It is not because I don't want to be original. Rather it is my own mind drawing from what I've read and using that as sparks for imaginative sidetwists of my mind asking, "what if..."

So although I don't claim to be original, I do like to think that my hard work is recognized at least as an original attempt at what is common. Although with some of my players I'm sure I could pull out a feud between two families over their childrens love for one another, including their deaths, without changing the names and my players being any the wiser. I can see it now. My players would respond with, "Dude, that whole thing between the Montague and Capulet family was cool. You should do more things in your game like that."

I suppose I should count myself lucky though. I never have to worry about coming up with something original if I feel like my brains, "what if" power is lacking.
When you're making an Adventure, remember to ask, "WWMPD" (What Would My Player's Do?) Then tailor your adventure around that.
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Fixxxer Aug 23 2005, 01:14 PM Post #13
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Like everyone else, I've also pulled a great deal of inspiration directly from the pages of my favorite literature. For example, in my homebrew, elves are nomadic desert people. They move constantly from one prepared cavern to another, never sleeping outside of these shelters if at all possible. Sound a lot like the Fremen from Dune? Or there's the idea that criminals sentenced to life terms for anything except for extremely violent crimes within the boundaries of the Empire can have this sentence stayed if they agree to join for life with the guard force that is stationed on the boundaries of the Empire and the goblin lands. That comes straight from the Song of Ice and Fire Saga by George R. R. Martin.

K is right. Anyone who claims that he hasn't been influenced in any way by any ouside force is either a liar or an idiot...or both.
In my mind, it is that simple. But then, I'm simple minded. -Didge-
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Hexeter Aug 23 2005, 02:17 PM Post #14
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A Lidiot? I like that word, *sticks a Flag in it* I, InsertGnomeHere, do hereby Coin this word for use in general speech.
Among the long shadows live I, living the lies and destroying the light.
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HollowDes Aug 24 2005, 09:58 AM Post #15
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My players would respond with, "Dude, that whole thing between the Montague and Capulet family was cool. You should do more things in your game like that."


LOL! That would chap my ass so bad :P Sounds exactly like something my players do. They're horrible about it sometimes too. I throw one orc at them who uses an axe, and all day long I hear about how they killed Grom Hellscream (WarCraft reference for those who aren't familiar with the series) *sigh*

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A Lidiot? I like that word, *sticks a Flag in it* I, InsertGnomeHere, do hereby Coin this word for use in general speech.


Ahhh, this bored makes me haha so hard.
Sleep...oh, how I loathe those little slices of death. - Longfellow
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