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| No Penalty Without Law; Proposed by Sciongrad | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 3 2015, 02:18 AM (447 Views) | |
| Christian Democrats | Apr 3 2015, 02:18 AM Post #1 |
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HMSM James II
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This proposal reached quorum earlier today. Its vote will begin in two hours. In-game debate thread: http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=21358190
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"I was born free and desire to continue so." | |
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| Christian Democrats | Apr 3 2015, 02:21 AM Post #2 |
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HMSM James II
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First, this clause is a horrible idea. It could result in the release of thousands of dangerous criminals worldwide. Second, I oppose this proposal because it is Western-centric and could infringe on the freedom of preindustrial countries to enforce their customary laws, which might or might not be procedurally and substantively fair. Against. |
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"I was born free and desire to continue so." | |
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| Banned: Chester Pearson | Apr 3 2015, 08:32 AM Post #3 |
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Resouluton Author Extraordinaire
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Against. |
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The Right Honourable Chester B. Pearson, Prime Minister, United Federation of Canada
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| Sciongrad | Apr 4 2015, 03:26 PM Post #4 |
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Poster
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The idea that clause 5 would release thousands of "dangerous" criminals is highly unlikely. To say that a regime that punishes individuals without a basis in law will be doing so to arrest murderers and rapists misunderstands that the purpose behind punishing individuals for actions that are not illegal is primarily to undermine or suppress political opposition, not to meaningfully dish out justice. This argument is accidentally exaggerated at best, and downright fear-mongering at worst. And even so, individuals should not be expected to endure the full length of a punishment for a law they did not break, regardless of what it is. It's not expected in the real world, and it definitely shouldn't be expected in the NS world either. And your argument regarding the Western-centric nature of the resolution is exaggerated. I've already explained to you on the NS thread how this does not preclude the practice of other types of legal system of non-western traditions, including Xeer. Edited by Sciongrad, Apr 4 2015, 03:30 PM.
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| unibot | Apr 4 2015, 05:25 PM Post #5 |
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Chief Propagandist
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"When it is determined to be both practical and necessary " is pretty bizarre wording in c.3; almost a bit dystopian. I'll vote alongside the forum vote. Personally I'll ABSTAIN, for the moment. |
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Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms Former Editor-In-Chief, Maestro | |
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| Christian Democrats | Apr 4 2015, 05:34 PM Post #6 |
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HMSM James II
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This is precisely the problem. Your conception of law is very narrow. I disagree. A jury of elders divining the law from reason and the sacred traditions of its people would not be protected even if the decisions of this system are consistently just. Let me give an example besides xeer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Hindu_law |
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"I was born free and desire to continue so." | |
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| Kenny | Apr 5 2015, 12:45 AM Post #7 |
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WASC Suicide Bomber
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I'm abstaining gameside, so I will be abstaining here also. |
| About us | |
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| Sciongrad | Apr 5 2015, 04:46 AM Post #8 |
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Poster
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That certainly wasn't the intention, nor do I think the actual effect of the clause is as insidious as you think it sounds. The wording was meant to balance the undeniable necessity of promulgating the laws with the possibility of economic impracticality. This was discussed in greater depth on the NS thread, but the effect of this clause is merely to allow for efforts at promulgation that are both practical (i.e. economically viable) and necessary (i.e. with sufficient effort to ensure that individuals are aware of what is and isn't illegal).
No, it isn't. You're assuming that the resolution only accounts for Western-centric models of law and therefore legal systems of a non-western tradition that rightfully punish dangerous criminals will be forced to free those criminals because it's not recognized by this resolution. I'm arguing, and have been arguing, that those legal systems are recognized by this resolution, and therefore any system that punishes individuals without a basis in law cannot reasonably be doing so for violent crimes.
As long as those decisions are predictable, consistent, and based on something other than the whims of the elders, then they are quite clearly recognized by this resolution. However, when it comes to legal systems founded entirely on the inclinations of a certain individual or a group of individuals, then western-centric or not, I don't believe that those types of legal system are legitimate. Edited by Sciongrad, Apr 5 2015, 01:41 PM.
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| Christian Democrats | Apr 5 2015, 07:43 AM Post #9 |
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HMSM James II
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Just because a judgment is not based on a publicly promulgated statute, legal opinion, or regulation does not make it whimsical. |
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"I was born free and desire to continue so." | |
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| Warzone Codger | Apr 5 2015, 08:49 AM Post #10 |
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JEFFERSONBORG
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For. After reading the discussion from the last TRT, I'm all for moves to advance the assumption that nations are modern human nations. WA RP shouldn't need to cater to pre-industrial societies. |
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Also known as Jeffersonborg - re-educating ejectees one mind at a time. | |
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| Christian Democrats | Apr 5 2015, 05:50 PM Post #11 |
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HMSM James II
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The article said that we ought to treat the WA world as if it were like the real world. Do you think indigenous communities (Australia, Canada, US, etc.) would be able to meet all of these promulgation requirements? If they haven't been meeting them, should they be required to cancel previous sentences? How about the hundreds of millions of people who live in preindustrial communities in Asia and Africa? To what lengths must a mountain village go to make sure that everybody knows what the case law says? |
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"I was born free and desire to continue so." | |
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| unibot | Apr 5 2015, 05:57 PM Post #12 |
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Chief Propagandist
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To be fair, how much effort would they put into coming into compliance with some distant international law. |
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Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms Former Editor-In-Chief, Maestro | |
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| Christian Democrats | Apr 5 2015, 06:00 PM Post #13 |
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HMSM James II
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Lol. Yes, there's definitely some difficulty in reconciling realism and the rule that all WA law is mandatory. |
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"I was born free and desire to continue so." | |
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| Sciongrad | Apr 5 2015, 09:32 PM Post #14 |
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Poster
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The promulgation requirements are not nearly as strict as you're making them out to be. Assuming an indigenous tribe with pre-industrial level technology levels is capable of both maintaining active membership in the WA and implementing and enforcing its extant legislation (comprehensive education, access to mental health facilities, etc.), there is no way traditions and reasoning that set the foundation for that tribe's law can't be spread through song, dance, folklore, etc. That is the length to which a mountain village must go to make sure everybody knows the tribes legal traditions. For someone so intent on painting this resolution as western-centric, you yourself haven't even acknowledged that promulgation doesn't need to be achieved through industrial, first world methods. Edited by Sciongrad, Apr 5 2015, 09:32 PM.
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| Guy | Apr 6 2015, 02:54 AM Post #15 |
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Old Admin Slave
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Abstain |
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12:21 AM Jul 11