| Welcome to The Rejected Realms, NationStates' ejection-free zone! You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you can only view some areas of the board and you can only post in the Troubleshooting and Suggestions forum. If you register an account, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customising your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Register now! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Official Communiqué of the Lone Wolves United | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Aug 10 2011, 05:11 PM (1,334 Views) | |
| Evil Wolf | Aug 12 2011, 08:35 PM Post #46 |
![]()
Lovable Monster
|
No information from the private government forum was shared. The only information that was passed on was that demands were being made for information pertaining to the WA names and locations of Lone Wolves United members who enjoy dual citizenship. Apparently, that was something that came up in the Private government forum, which is news to me. Sure is a lot of showboating and jumping of the gun with little factual evidence going on in this thread, however... |
![]() |
|
| Spartan Termopylae | Aug 12 2011, 09:33 PM Post #47 |
|
The Fool on the Hill
|
On both sides, id say |
|
When you play the game of thrones, you win, or you die Liebe ist fur alle da | |
![]() |
|
| A Draaaaaagon | Aug 12 2011, 10:46 PM Post #48 |
|
Contributor
|
*Holds up mirror facing EW* Since EW had solicited questions with regards to EW's Citizenship application, one cannot expect not to have questions arise. Double that one makes a statement that one's primary loyalty is to one's home region -- so why apply to become a citizen of TRR? With all due respect, parading this out as a disconnected "communique" apart from the citizenship request is dishonest. |
![]() |
|
| Evil Wolf | Aug 12 2011, 11:24 PM Post #49 |
![]()
Lovable Monster
|
I have been a citizen in The West Pacific, The North Pacific, and Lazarus. I have been King and delegate of Lazarus on three separate occasions, I have lead a military in The West Pacific, and I lead the rebellion that the tyrant Durkadurkiranistan II was deposed in and personally banned him by my own hand. I have never had any problems regarding my membership in Lone Wolves United in any of those region. I do not foresee a problem in this region either. My reasons for applying are simple, I want, like so many others, to be involved in the post-Kandy construction of The Rejected Realms, in what should be a new era for the region. Of course, you really should ask those questions here and not in this embassy since my application is not a Lone Wolves' matter. *steals A Draaaaaagon's mirror and hold it facing him* Now, why are you so interested in my personal actions? |
![]() |
|
| Thought Transference | Aug 13 2011, 12:17 AM Post #50 |
|
professional loafer
|
... and it will be refused without discussion if it falls within certain boundaries. Translation of your answer: LWU's solution was provided. This thread is dragging on because it's less than satisfactory to at least some folks in TRR. As I've already said, from one point of view, LWU's position is valid and reasonable, but it fails to take any account of an equally valid and reasonable but contrary position. This thread isn't going to be resolved to anything even approximating the mutual satisfaction of all parties without having the hard discussion about how to get each side to come to terms with the underlying problem: foreign soldiers whose raison d'être is to take over other regions are becoming citizens here but don't like being asked questions which will reassure us that we're not one of the "other regions" on their menu. Both LWU and TRR have important security concerns: right now each of us is speaking from the position that our own security concerns trump everyone else's. How is it not easy to see that these conflicting priorities undercut the discussion at hand? Edited by Thought Transference, Aug 13 2011, 12:18 AM.
|
|
Peace, TT Coffee is the cause of all things. (Thales, 2nd ed.) | |
![]() |
|
| Tikal | Aug 13 2011, 01:08 AM Post #51 |
|
Contributor
|
I think you're severely undermining LWUs interests, and looking at this with a somewhat flawed perception. Any soldier can be involved in espionage, or open operations in his military. The first ones require his WA to be hidden at all times; the second depend on his military orientation to be so. What tips the balance in this occasion, is that the region asking the questions is going to leak our information. If it were a defender spy, you wouldn't leak it. It has nothing to do with us being raiders; is has to do with TRR having an obligation that directly clashes with our interests (sharing information with the FRA). Also, keep in mind that when you say "oh, dreary, a coup is a severe security issue, what you raiders do is not worth saving compared to it", you're talking about LWU, a region that is military only; All LWU does is missions - raid, infiltrate, colonize; all of it's activity consists of these operations; you're not talking about a random region who has a military on the side, but where mainly people talk about politics, do some roleplay and spam. You're talking about professional raiders, who *only* raid; and you're asking them to quit the *only* thing they do in their region. |
![]() |
|
| Evil Wolf | Aug 13 2011, 01:08 AM Post #52 |
![]()
Lovable Monster
|
So, Thought Transference, your solution is for Lone Wolves United to give up on its security concerns, concerns we have actually outlined and publicly stated, to satisfy The Rejected Realm's unspecific "security concerns", which we in Lone Wolves United are not allowed to know details about but we are being reassured are most pressing. That about sum it up? Edited by Evil Wolf, Aug 13 2011, 01:09 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Aurora | Aug 13 2011, 02:13 AM Post #53 |
![]()
Contributor
|
Tikal and Evil Wolf- again, I will reiterate that we will not treat dual citizens of LWU and TRR any differently than citizens who are not involved in TRR. Nobody has been told that should they not answer a question, we will wreak havoc upon them, revoke their citizenship, and kick them of the region-- there are no dire consequences. At this present time, TRR simply finds your request unreasonable. We will not treat LWU dual citizens as any less a citizen of TRR by directing our questions to anybody but them. As a former raider, I understand the need for operational security, believe me- and again, all citizens can refuse to answer such a question. However, asking us to direct our questions to members of another government when dealing entirely with TRR citizens is out of the question. That will continually be the only response of this government. I appreciate LWU's stance on the matter, but I do not believe that further discussion will bring about any change in what I believe is a reasonable position considering that LWU is attempting to interfere with how TRR governs its citizens. You have no control over what we ask our citizens, and you cannot ask us to treat some citizens differently than others. Guy- what you have learned in this thread is that as FA officer, it is my job to publicly represent the interests of TRR while concurrently reaching out and understanding the positions of our friends abroad. It is common among all raiders not to disclose their WA nation- it is not a Wolf policy, but it is a policy of raiderism in general, and has been for a long time. As TRR subscribes to neutral governance, that does mean that we respect raiders and those policies as well. To suggest that I value regional security less is an absurd claim, but one that does not need to be dealt with here. I understand that you are speaking not a foreign dignitary but a citizen, but I would ask you, again to keep your tone respectful while dealing with foreign leaders- or at the very least civil. |
![]() |
|
| Guy | Aug 13 2011, 03:59 AM Post #54 |
![]()
Old Admin Slave
|
No, it doesn't. Our first and foremost priority should always be our own region, and the security of it. If in order to maintain it, Citizens would have to give up the location of their WAs, and there is no other way to secure the wellbeing of our region -- then so be it. If a Citizen needs to choose between the security of our region and maintaining the secrecy of their WA for raider purposes, I would hope they choose the former -- especially considering that as you had mentioned, TRR is neutral... And thus that should not really present a problem, unless there is such a level of mistrust in our regional institutions. And if the Citizen chooses the latter, then appropriate action should be considered. I would note though that this is a hypothetical, and does not apply to this case. |
![]() |
|
| Aurora | Aug 13 2011, 04:53 AM Post #55 |
![]()
Contributor
|
Speaking as a citizen, that is indeed a hypothetical that doesn't apply in this case, nor in any other case I could think of at the moment. Furthermore, if Sedge or CG as members of the intelligence agency (thus so because CG is also the head of the RRA) ever compelled WA status information and told us that citizenship would be revoked if we didn't answer because we would be a 'threat to regional security', I (and I am sure others) would see that as a gross misuse of administrator power, especially due to the heavy-handedness of that situtation. The idea that TRR would force a legitimate citizen who has done no wrong with no other proof and a raider to give up the location of current WA paints a picture of an exploitative TRR that I'd want nothing to do with. |
![]() |
|
| Evil Wolf | Aug 13 2011, 05:56 AM Post #56 |
![]()
Lovable Monster
|
I'm starting to get mixed signals here... |
![]() |
|
| Thought Transference | Aug 13 2011, 12:42 PM Post #57 |
|
professional loafer
|
I'm sorry, Tikal, but you've misunderstood me. Perhaps that's my fault, so let me try again. I wasn't attempting to "take sides" or denigrate either side. I was attempting to show that there is a real question that must be addressed, an issue which is the real reason why this thread drags on with two opposing points of view that never manage to meet. And to show that they can't ever meet while ignoring the question. Let me use your own words:
I repeat: I wasn't denigrating the fact that LWU are raiders; I wasn't saying raiding isn't "worth" much. I was attempting to highlight the fact that, because the only thing LWU does is raid, wherever they go, there is a presumption of their intention: if LWU are here, they are here to raid or to see if raiding could be feasible. Do you really not see that because LWU exist to raid, their reason for being is fundamentally incompatible with the well-being of any reason they visit unless there can be proper negotiation of the terms of their presence in that region? That's why we have to direct intell resources at LWU nations: LWU are raiders, and raiding is not only what they do, it's all they do. As you say, they are "professional raiders, who *only* raid". It can't be any clearer than that. As long as we keep refusing to state this explicitly and to ask, "Now, how do we make it safe for TRR to have LWU in our midst?" we'll keep tiptoeing around, and end up getting nowhere. As long as LWU come into TRR proposing that they will make no accommodation of the security needs of TRR, we'll get nowhere. Your solution, in effect, is to say that LWU are raiders, we must risk letting them raid if they like and take no steps to protect ourselves. That's no solution. That's surrender. |
|
Peace, TT Coffee is the cause of all things. (Thales, 2nd ed.) | |
![]() |
|
| Thought Transference | Aug 13 2011, 12:54 PM Post #58 |
|
professional loafer
|
No, that's not my solution. My solution is: [1] for us to stop pretending there isn't a fundamental problem to be addressed, based on the fact that LWU's reason for being is raiding, as so aptly put by Tikal, [2] for us to discuss if, and how, we can keep LWU's reason for being from becoming a threat to our region's existence, and [3] for us to find and implement the necessary means of accomplishing that if and when we decide it can be done. You shouldn't pretend you don't know and understand our security concerns. You're an experienced LWU soldier. In Tikal's words, you're 'a professional raider, you only raid, and it's the only thing you do' (if you don't see yourself that way, take it up with Tikal ). Your primary job is to destabilize and take over other people's regions. Our primary job is to keep our region stable and safe. There is a de facto clash of purposes between you and us. My solution is for us all to talk together and to explore, deliberately and honestly, possible ways of making it possible for us to co-exist together in TRR. IF it can be done it'll require serious discussion about matters that are either being ignored or assumed but minimized, I can't tell which. Right now, it looks like we're trying to get the lion to lie down with the lamb while pretending the lion isn't carnivorous. Now the word is out: lions eat lambs. The question is, how do we get the lion to behave around the lamb? |
|
Peace, TT Coffee is the cause of all things. (Thales, 2nd ed.) | |
![]() |
|
| Spartan Termopylae | Aug 13 2011, 05:33 PM Post #59 |
|
The Fool on the Hill
|
Marriage. Not in the persobal sense. Im not suggesting a member from one "marry" one from the other. No, simply, if we come up with some sort of treaty, one that implicitly states that the lone wolves cannot raid us, then we have a solution. Obviously, the two foreign offices will have to negotiate any other terms, but its not a wholly bad idea, now, is it? |
|
When you play the game of thrones, you win, or you die Liebe ist fur alle da | |
![]() |
|
| Tikal | Aug 13 2011, 09:11 PM Post #60 |
|
Contributor
|
You can't just pick up one thing I point out, and ignore all the rest. All the posts I did in TRR, up to the OP of this thread, were as a citizen of TRR, not as a representative of LWU. Like me, any other person who happens to be here, and at the same time is a member of LWU, speaks as a citizen of TRR within TRR. I already said there was no LWU involvement in TRR. Not in WAs, nor with citizens. I can't possibly say it again, if you're going to keep ignoring it. |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Embassy Archive · Next Topic » |







).
1:01 AM Jul 11