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Delegate: Wabbitslayah
Officer: Frattastan (Foreign Affairs)
Officer: Marilyn Manson Freaks (Outreach)
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RRA Commander: Wopruthien
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Official Communiqué of the Lone Wolves United
Topic Started: Aug 10 2011, 05:11 PM (1,335 Views)
Spartan Termopylae
The Fool on the Hill
I dont play mind games, my friend. Far too simple. Regardless. When i applied, there was a question in the applivation thread. It said, if you have a wa nation, what is it? Now, thats a fair question, dont you think? Its asked of everyone. If youre interested, mine has the same name as my account here. Now. The same question goes to all. Raiders can see the same answer from fefenders. Its just the same, as they can pass that info. Now, im neither raider nor defender. I dont care what you are. But to say that your lone wolves are being singled out with this is utter rot, and im fair certain you make the same demand to those who wish to join you
When you play the game of thrones, you win, or you die

Liebe ist fur alle da
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Evil Wolf
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Tikal is already a The Rejected Realms citizen and there is no WA requirement for initial citizenship. Just about everything you just laid claim to was utter bollocks.

So, in response to your question, no, for a former Defender with strong defender ties in a region which is a member of a defender alliance and plays host to a Defender army to ask a Raider citizen of the region for their WA nation, that is not a "fair question" at all. That information will almost certainly be passed on to Defenders, I have absolutely no illusions at all about that and any reasonable person with any tactical foresight at all would come to the same conclusion.

This is a clear abuse of power and a direct contradiction to the "neutral" status so many in The Rejected Realms claim to abide by.



Edited by Evil Wolf, Aug 11 2011, 11:27 PM.
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Spartan Termopylae
The Fool on the Hill
I never said it was a requirement. Just a question. I was asked. I answered. It happens in places where it is visible, and since we have confessed raiders here, any defenders can pass on the same info that you have your knickers in a twist about.

And thank you for accepting my point that youd do the very same thing. And since you seem to be psychic, in order to know what will happen, tell me how im thinking to end this post.....
When you play the game of thrones, you win, or you die

Liebe ist fur alle da
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Evil Wolf
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I'd rather continue this line of argument with a wooden table than talk to you a second more. The table would probably do a better job anyway.
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Spartan Termopylae
The Fool on the Hill
Feel free. Have a nice day

ps. Send tikal back to talk. Got on with her better
Edited by Spartan Termopylae, Aug 11 2011, 11:42 PM.
When you play the game of thrones, you win, or you die

Liebe ist fur alle da
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A Draaaaaagon
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Spartan Termopylae
Aug 11 2011, 06:36 PM
If its an assumption, there is no burden of proof. Accusation is different. With an incorrect assumption, you should leap at the chance to re-educate us. Not evade and make the assumption appear true
Evil Wolf appears to proven your observation, ST. You certainly have conducted the most respectful probing I have seen. Too bad EW appears not be listening.

And I can assume the wooden table EW mentioned desiring conversation with is round -- I am assuming like EW's circular responses, designed to evade rather than be communicative. Curiously, EW was the one who invited us to ask questions and by extension, test assumptions for validity.
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Aurora
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In response to the communique'- The Rejected Realms understands that certain regions have stronger security needs than others in regards to their citizens. However, all citizens are seen as equal- we certainly do not value or change our approach to one individual because of other regions they may be a member of. If questioning of something like WA status is taking place, citizens would not be forced to answer on threat of revocation of citizenship immediately- nor will we direct our questions to officials of other regions as long as all parties involved are TRR citizens. We feel that the request, while understandable towards protecting regional security, is an unreasonable request to us and our regional soverignty. However, again, we reiterate that no citizen would lose their citizenship solely based on their refusal to answer a question on WA status and location.

Evil Wolf, as a leader in LWU, I assure you that any questions Sedge may have been asking about WA status certainly carried no weight like the revocation of citizenship; besides, any half-decent raider already knows not to disclose their current WA puppet. That particular question is asked on several different application forms- I'm assuming your wolves know how to refuse to answer.

As a potential citizen who'd like to get more involved in governmental affairs, I'd ask you to remain patient and continue to respect our rules for a bit longer- your appeal is currently under consideration by the Assembly, and as soon as it is constitutionally allowed for a decision to be made and announced, it will be

TRR citizens- I understand the urge to defend our policies and our decisions- but in general, if y'all could just remember that embassies are really not the place for heated or incendiary debates to take place. Please try to respect other foreign leaders in the same way that we would like our ambassadors to be treated abroad. Civil discourse is, as always, appropriate, as long as it remains civil. (:

-Aurora
Foreign Affairs Officer
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Evil Wolf
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This really isn't about my appeal, in this embassy I'm the Second Founder of Lone Wolves United. I thank you for your response, Aurora, however and would like to reemphasize that at no point will any Wolf who is a citizen of The Rejected Realms ever reveal their World Assembly nation to anyone outside of official military operations for any reason.
Edited by Evil Wolf, Aug 12 2011, 07:18 AM.
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Aurora
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Evil Wolf
Aug 12 2011, 07:17 AM
This really isn't about my appeal, in this embassy I'm the Second Founder of Lone Wolves United. I thank you for your response, Aurora, however and would like to reemphasize that at no point will any Wolf who is a citizen of The Rejected Realms ever reveal their World Assembly nation to anyone outside of official military operations for any reason.
I understand your position. (:

And I would just like to reemphasize that no citizen of the Rejected Realms would ever be threatened, harassed, or punished if they didn't reveal such information. While there are times such information would be helpful, we understand the importance of keeping covert WA nations to raiding, and respect all citizens' rights, Wolf or not, to privacy.
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Guy
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So what this thread proved to us:

1. Information from our private board was shared by Tikal with EW and potentially others

2. My 2-year-old second-cousin is probably smarter than Evil Wolf, and

3. Our Foreign Affairs Officer values privacy more than security.

Awesome.
Edited by Guy, Aug 12 2011, 04:43 PM.
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Tikal
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Guy
Aug 12 2011, 04:39 PM
So what this thread proved to us:

1. Information from our private board was shared by Tikal with EW and potentially others

2. My 2-year-old second-cousin is probably smarter than Evil Wolf, and

3. Our Foreign Affairs Officer values privacy more than security.

Awesome.
It shows that I informed EW, as he might be asked about it, that TRR might be requesting information regarding Wolves.


And if it shows anything, it shows that TRR has no respect for invaders, who have WA stealth requirements.


Also, that you think insulting representatives of other regions in their embassies is a good idea. O.o
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Spartan Termopylae
The Fool on the Hill
Now now, guy, lets not say things without evidence. We have no direct, incontrovertible proof that tikal shared info
When you play the game of thrones, you win, or you die

Liebe ist fur alle da
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Guy
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Quote:
 
And if it shows anything, it shows that TRR has no respect for invaders, who have WA stealth requirements.
Given the circumstance, I'd expect citizens of TRR to value some things more highly than the location of their WA, and to be able to trust our elected-Delegate and Administrator with it. If you do not trust two of our most fundemantal institutions to only consider the wellfare and security of our region, then there is a very serious issue here. Citizenship empowers you with rights, but also responsibility towards the region -- which evidently you do not trust, and therefore cannot fulfill your obligations to it.

Quote:
 
Also, that you think insulting representatives of other regions in their embassies is a good idea. O.o
After they had insulted, without provocation, members of my region? They are the ones here in official diplomatic capacity, not me nor the Citizens they have insulted.
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Thought Transference
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I'll avoid repeating my full text from here, but I do want to ask for the main points to be considered:

  • It can be argued that there is a logical inconsistency in asking LWU to divulge to us information they regard as vital to their security, while at the same time regarding it as some kind of espionage when others ask for information we regard as vital to our security. Equally, it can be argued that the two types of data are not proportionate in the kind of risk they pose. The kind of risk TRR faces is the greater. I consider this an immediate cause of this impasse: we're not going to communicate well with one another until we each acknowledge what our own concerns look like to the other parties.

  • I regard the real problem as arising in large part from the matter of split loyalties. I believe we are ignoring the fact that we are pretending that players can be as loyal to us as we require even if they're bound by a "military" loyalty to a militia whose job it is to destabilize other regions (where in the past, that has included us). For the sake of argument consider RL: imagine a soldier on active duty in the army of, say, China, applying to Japan for citizenship. Impossible? I don't know. Thorny? Most definitely.

  • There are perhaps ways we could solve this that should suit almost everyone and bring about a degree of peace, but I can see no way for us to continue ignoring this that will let us move past this kind of conflict.

The fact this this thread is 3 pages long but no closer to resolution suggests to me that we should face this head-on.
Peace,
TT

Coffee is the cause of all things. (Thales, 2nd ed.)
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Tikal
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The solution was provided to begin with: any information may be requested to the LWU intel department.

If you want to go on a debate about multiple citizenships, this is not the thread for it.
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