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Government:

Delegate: Wabbitslayah
Officer: Frattastan (Foreign Affairs)
Officer: Marilyn Manson Freaks (Outreach)
Officer: PowerPAOK (Media)
Officer: Relfa (Culture)

Other Officials:

Speaker: Vulturret
RRA High Commander: Frattastan
RRA Commander: Guy
RRA Commander: Wopruthien
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Constitutional draft
Topic Started: Feb 12 2011, 01:10 AM (1,224 Views)
CrazyGirl
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RRA Commander
I want my fancy title.
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Whamabama
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Questionably Evil
The delegate having the power to veto is not about the delegate having more of a say in legislation. In this form the delegates vote is equal. However it is a check on the power of the assembly. A short one, but at least something to balance any wrong doing of the assembly. The assembly in return should be able to over ride such a veto if enough people support such a notion. Remember it would suck to be the sheep with a hungry pack of wolves voting on dinner.

It also keeps with the realities of the game. Where the only one in the region with any power is the sitting delegate. Also keep in mind the number of delegates who have gotten bored with being a figuerehead, and just replaced the government, the forum, and just opted for something new.
Those who don't create, dictate
The structure of our world and preach hate
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sedge
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Whamabama
Feb 14 2011, 03:35 PM
The delegate having the power to veto is not about the delegate having more of a say in legislation. In this form the delegates vote is equal. However it is a check on the power of the assembly. A short one, but at least something to balance any wrong doing of the assembly. The assembly in return should be able to over ride such a veto if enough people support such a notion. Remember it would suck to be the sheep with a hungry pack of wolves voting on dinner.
It doesn't give the delegate an equal vote, it gives the delegate a vote equal to all the rest of the citizens combined. I don't want a check on the Assembly, because the Assembly is the will of the region. Be aware that the Assembly is actually limited to voting on laws, treaties & constitutional amendments, and electing officials. The delegate has the whole government to control.

Quote:
 
It also keeps with the realities of the game. Where the only one in the region with any power is the sitting delegate.

That's not actually the case. Sure, they're the only person who can change the WFE, but we've got enough experienced people here who know how to run endorsement/un-endorsement campaigns when they need to. The only in-game powers the delegate has are to vote on WA resolutions, approve WA proposals, and change the WFE. They don't have a 'veto' over the region's will within the game.

Quote:
 
Also keep in mind the number of delegates who have gotten bored with being a figuerehead, and just replaced the government, the forum, and just opted for something new.

I really don't think that's going to happen here - we're too sensible to elect someone like that, and the lack of eject/ban functions means the region is less attractive to those kinds of people. Also, anyone who runs for delegate will know what powers the position comes with - we've never before discussed giving the delegate veto powers, so anyone expecting the position to come with them is wrong.
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Whamabama
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When other regions made their constitutions, I am sure they also knew they wouldn't elect anyone who would change the forums ect. Unfortunatly they were wrong. Let's learn from their mistake, not copy it.

And the fact there is no eject, or banject button does not mean that we are immune to the delegate who feels like they don't have the power they should. The fact they know the rules of the position beforehand won't change it either. It never has before, it wouldn't be wise to assume we are suddenly immune from it now.

As far as the delegate having an equal vote, well only in the matter of saying no, but that's the whole point to having checks on power. But if the will of the rest of the region is strong enough, they can over turn it.
Those who don't create, dictate
The structure of our world and preach hate
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sedge
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I don't think "learning from their mistake" means giving the delegate near-total control of the region.

I think we've both made our views clear here - I'd like to here from some other members of the region too.
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CrazyGirl
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RRA Commander
I still want my fancy title.

You want someone to be able to veto stuff? I'll take it.
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Whamabama
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Questionably Evil
It's not giving the delegate near-total control over the region.

CG you already have a fancy title. Wifey!
Edited by Whamabama, Feb 14 2011, 07:43 PM.
Those who don't create, dictate
The structure of our world and preach hate
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CrazyGirl
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Actually, it is. They can stop any and all legislation that the region is trying to implement. Combine that with already having the power over the day-to-day business.....wham. Power.

I want a fancy title in the RR. Wifey is not a fancy title :P
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Anur-Sanur
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i didn't read it but it looks nice

good work sedge
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Whamabama
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CrazyGirl
Feb 14 2011, 07:52 PM
Actually, it is. They can stop any and all legislation that the region is trying to implement. Combine that with already having the power over the day-to-day business.....wham. Power.

I want a fancy title in the RR. Wifey is not a fancy title :P
They can make it harder, the assembly can still over turn a veto.

But either way, if tyranny exists, it doesn't have to be by a dictator, tyranny by majority is just as bad. and this is the best thing we can implement to put checks against both.

and Wifey is a damn good title!
Those who don't create, dictate
The structure of our world and preach hate
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sedge
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sedge
Feb 14 2011, 02:41 PM
Wham
 
Also membership in the assembly mentions members of the RRA who are not citizens are in it. That just doesn't look good. It makes it appear that people not citizens of the region are being granted membership. Perhaps it would be better to simply grant members in the RRA citizenship instead? Then you could add membership in the RRA as an additional method of gaining citizenship.

There's very little difference between the two, but yes - I could make that change.
Updated to include that change.
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sedge
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*cattle prods all those who haven't commented yet*
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Spartan Termopylae
The Fool on the Hill
Not falling on either side here, but one thing that I have thought reading this is that if the delegate steps out of line and uses the veto in ways that would have made Ceasar look like an easy ruler, the body of the assembly just challenges the incumbent. For example, Nai vetos several bills for no other reason than she doesn't like the people presenting them (not that I think this is going to happen, it's just an example), a group of concerned citizens then band together and challenge her, with maybe Sedge as the frontman (again, just examples here, not what I think will happen, it's just that Sedge's last post is the one I can see at the moment). Then they garner the support of the electorate and then replace Nai. Practical? I think so.

Or do whats happened in Parliament over the last few years. Any bill thats been passed by the Assembly can only be vetoed by the delegate a set number of times, as long as it's a clear majority behind it, and as long as if the bill needs slight alterations they are done. How about that?
When you play the game of thrones, you win, or you die

Liebe ist fur alle da
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sedge
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We saw from the last elections, that there's actually very few people here willing to take on the role of delegate. I don't think it's realistic to expect the threat of a challenge to prevent the delegate from vetoing bills.

I accept that your suggestion of limiting the number of vetoes would reduce my worries about the delegate having too much power. However, it doesn't address my main concern that it's unnecessary for the delegate to have a veto. I simply don't see why we need one individual who has the power to override a majority vote from the rest of us.
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Spartan Termopylae
The Fool on the Hill
Neither way holds any strong emotion from my standpoint. In the game, a head of state with no power is more useless than the Queen, and what a sad state of affairs that is. However, for the region, some do not like the power resting in one place. But the challenge system and limiting the vetos would act as a check on this, and as for people actually making the challenge, well, someone who thinks the incumbent is acting unfairly and wants to do something about it...the situation is different from what we had at New Year. If people want a change, they will do what they can to make it. A group can talk and select a candidate from amongst themselves, as the two Triumvirates did at the end of the Roman Republic
When you play the game of thrones, you win, or you die

Liebe ist fur alle da
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