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Manetheren River [split posts]
Topic Started: Jan 29 2011, 01:48 AM (252 Views)
CrazyGirl
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RRA Commander
Admin note: Posts split from Adding New Residents. These ones are specifically about granting Manetheren River residency, rather than the general topic of deciding how to process residency applications.

His use of proxies makes it impossible for us to determine if he's not yet here already.
Edited by sedge, Jan 29 2011, 06:28 AM.
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Biyah
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High Priest of the Cult
I don't think we can afford the PR hit by not letting him in. You've said before that he can join the forum under proxy. Until we can prove he wasnt just browsing as a guest, there's no clear way to keep him out.

Unless we want to deal with the fallout of blocking potential residents.

~B
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CrazyGirl
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RRA Commander
The forum, yes. But becoming a resident and getting a voice here, is a different matter. I think everyone can understand that we need to make sure we don't get a horde of puppets here. Letting him join the residents using a proxy, would set a bad precedent.
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Biyah
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High Priest of the Cult
He knows the forum exists, and we can't prove he's anyone else. Right now the old gentleman's club he mentioned is just a fantasy of his imagination, but if we block him for just that reason, he'll have ammo to use.

Personally, I don't much like him, but between him an Anur, they can cause problems for any legitimate attempt we make at forming a government in the near future. We let a known troll in (Anur), Manetheren has at least been willing to listen to reason up until this point.

~B
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Biyah
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High Priest of the Cult
Double post. This is posted with permission, an IRC Conversation between both of us.

I agree that it is somewhat distasteful to add someone who is admittedly under proxy. However, we'll continue taking a PR hit if we don't allow him in. If he proves to be a security threat, he can be removed again.

Anyway - we're leaving it up for discussion.

Quote:
 

07:56.50pm <@CrazyGirl> I will keep advocating against allowing him in as long as he is using a proxy
07:57.02pm <@Biyah> and I'll keep saying let him in until he proves a threat.
07:57.08pm <@Biyah> here's why
07:57.41pm <@Biyah> Anur and Manetheren, by themselves, are no big issue to us. If both of them get together and start wailing on the same facts though - they're going to cause Nai massive political headaches.
07:58.12pm <@Biyah> Anur is still in private residents and he's an obvious crasher. If we deny Manetheren, who does have a chance of being legit, we're only shooting ourselves in the foot.
07:58.30pm <@Biyah> I do understand the security concern, I don't like it much either - but the alternative is to become that private club we're accused of being.
07:58.31pm <@CrazyGirl> I may be convinced to give him viewing rights
07:58.38pm <@Biyah> that would be even worse
07:58.42pm <@Biyah> he couldnt take part
07:58.47pm <@CrazyGirl> but unless he drops the proxy use, I will be against allowing him a voice
07:58.49pm <@Biyah> The private resident forum is not a security forum.
07:58.59pm <@Biyah> he can be removed from it again
07:59.24pm <@CrazyGirl> He needs to stop using a proxy first.
07:59.32pm <@Biyah> And if you block him based on that, you've turned yourself into a questionable liar - you said you had no issues with him joining as a proxy
07:59.41pm <@CrazyGirl> The forum.
07:59.42pm <@Biyah> If -I- can quote that, you can bet your pants that Manetheren will
07:59.54pm <@Biyah> You never specified what he couldnt access with proxy
07:59.55pm <@CrazyGirl> And he IS on the forum with a proxy
08:00.08pm <@CrazyGirl> nor did I specify what he could
08:00.12pm <@Biyah> As I said, the residents private forum is not a security forum.
08:00.34pm <@CrazyGirl> It is a forum where decisions are being made regarding the region.
08:00.35pm <@Biyah> at this point, we'll only strengthen the arguments of both of them (and whoever they can sway) if we don't let him in
08:00.44pm <@CrazyGirl> And I need to make sure everyone gets ONE voice
08:00.46pm <@Biyah> yes. And ANur has proved that stupidity does not get through
08:00.52pm <@Biyah> can you prove he has a voice there already?
08:01.02pm <@Biyah> there arent that many people taking part
08:01.07pm <@CrazyGirl> Can you prove that he hasn't?
08:01.33pm <@Biyah> considering the nature of the argument we're in - not letting him in until he's proved he doesnt have more than one voice would be viewed as exclusionary
08:01.37pm <@Biyah> which is what I'm trying to fight here.
08:01.53pm <@Biyah> if he proves to be a problem, he can be removed again
08:02.10pm <@Biyah> PM him and tell him that if his proxy ever drops and his identiy is proved to be someone else on the board - that he'll be banned entirely
08:02.11pm <@Biyah> or something
08:02.36pm <@Biyah> give him a chance to admit to anything now
08:03.33pm <@CrazyGirl> Someone using a proxy usually has something to hide.
08:03.44pm <@Biyah> IF you take him at face value, he's hiding from you and me.
08:04.04pm <@Biyah> We have a choice. Let people in and deal with them as they come, or continue dealing with the exclusionary bit
08:04.57pm <@CrazyGirl> We'll see what others have to say.
08:05.00pm <@Biyah> Yup
08:05.03pm <@CrazyGirl> But I remain against it
08:05.09pm <@Biyah> shall we post this conversation so they can see both sides?
08:05.26pm <@CrazyGirl> Sure
08:05.38pm <@Biyah> ok, cool
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sedge
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Well the Co3 was given a bit of leeway in making decisions, and clearly Manetheren River's application would need to be debated, given his use of a proxy to access the forums.
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Biyah
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High Priest of the Cult
He's given reasons, distasteful as they might be (I'm vengeful, remember).

from a political point of view, it's almost a necessity that he get added. I would advocate differently if there were any secrets here. Mane has distanced himself from Anur, but his argument about an exclusionary government is still intact.

~B
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Biyah
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High Priest of the Cult
Again, double post and quoted with permission. This is a quick log to show another viewpoint.

Basically, TRR used a proposal put forth from this guy. It would be incredibly impolitic to block him now.

Quote:
 

23:20Whamgiven that he is not against a new forum, but is against this one, and worried about IP really gives me problems
23:20BiyahI am of two minds
23:21Biyah1: yes, the security guy in me is going ape
23:21Biyah2: He does have a legit gripe against sedge, who changed his user title once and was caught. He did say that he could be fine on the current forum if there are more checks and balances - that is not an unreasonable position.
23:22BiyahHe's been bulldog consistent in his message.
23:23Whamya
23:25Whambut then again I have no idea what kind of checks and balances he thinks needs to be there. Being a forum admin, I would never go for just electing, or some other thing regarding the admins
23:25Biyahwe'd have to ask him
23:25Biyahconsidering his proposal structure, I'd imagine some sort of oversight comittee
23:26Whamthat is possible, and likely.
23:28WhamI am just conserned about safety as usual......
23:28Whamnot that I am a power hungry admin
23:28BiyahMe too. But Mane is right in one way, the board does appear to be a club. And if he keeps hammering at it, eventually people will listen
23:29Biyahblocking him from residency when he wrote the original proposal that CREATED the residency level - I can only describe how that would be a problem
23:29Whamya
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sedge
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Admin Slave
Yep, that's a good reason - and if we do let the Co3 make the decision, I imagine that'd be taken into account.

However, we still need to hear from other citizens to make sure they're OK with the Co3 continuing in the role it had during the elections.
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Biyah
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High Priest of the Cult
Actually, could I request a split? We went something off topic. The Manetheren Stuff probably belongs in its own discussion.

~B
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sedge
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Which posts do you want split?
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Biyah
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There. The other thread wasn't meant to be entirely about Manetheren River, I just used him as our example.

Now we can continue arguing his validity without burying the original topic :P

~B
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Naivetry
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Spammer
Maybe a compromise? ('cause, you know, that's what I do... :P )

As I see it, the only real worry about Manetheren's use of proxies is the potential that he's already here under another name, thus giving one player two votes.

So how about we give him access and posting permissions, but just not voting rights for as long as he chooses to continue using a proxy? That would remove the largest part of the security risk. He seems to be worried that we'll go after his other identity somehow if we know who he is. I don't think there's anything we can do to reassure him about that, but I think he'll understand that we can't let him vote while he's using it, for the same reason - security.

As for keeping conversations here private to residents - well, Manetheren certainly is one. He's a WA nation who's been in TRR for months, now, and everything I've seen from him suggests that he's interested in the region for its own sake, even if he disagrees with some of us on just what that means. We need more people like that. They're the heart and soul of any community, and in a feeder they're as rare as they are precious.

If we keep the Co3 as a provisional group, it'll be their decision, of course. That's just my opinion.
Edited by Naivetry, Jan 29 2011, 10:17 AM.
[nation]Kandarin[/nation] the Younger/[nation]Lirantha[/nation]
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Biyah
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Ah. You break that to him, he'll shred us :P

I suppose it's about as good a compromise as we'll get. Works for me.

~B
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