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The use of Kandarin
Topic Started: Jan 19 2011, 06:11 AM (1,335 Views)
sedge
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Anur-Sanur
Jan 27 2011, 08:40 PM
all some people are asking is that at least an attempt be made. Lirantha can tart up and see where that goes, it really doesn't require that much effort.
Not without having to deal with switching Kandarin to someone else, and getting them to start endo-swapping - which then runs into difficulties, as people will be asking why Kandarin has changed ownership again.

Plus, it's the actual switching that is hardest - because when that happens, both Kandarin and Lirantha would have to have lower endo counts than the max they could achieve, in order to facilitate the switch.

Anyhow, if you want a vote, I think we can have a new thread for it - just for votes - so it's clear. We can keep debate here.
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CrazyGirl
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In the mean time, perhaps it would be wise for everyone here to unendorse Pristine Angel, who is currently threatening the delegacy. Anur Sanur?
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Anur-Sanur
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Quote:
 
Not without having to deal with switching Kandarin to someone else, and getting them to start endo-swapping - which then runs into difficulties, as people will be asking why Kandarin has changed ownership again.


Wait what? Who would ask that? Lirantha would just tart up, what does that have to do with Kandarin changing ownership? Nai would still have Kandarin, Whambama or someone else would take Lirantha and just passively tart up.

I already said I think there already has been a vote, there are enough people who would like an attempt to be made. I feel if you put it up to a vote nations will stray from their true feelings. There is evidently enough people who would like an attempt to be made, and Lirantha tarting up would be a small step. I don't see the need to start making nations choose either yes or no definitively. That can happen if Lirantha gets close enough.

To CG, I thought you were a strategist? Why would I remove my endorsement from Angel? To her that is an extra endorsement, whatever she is planning she does so with my endorsement and with anyone else. Removing it now will give her a more accurate picture of her endorsement situation, something we should not grant her. She is nearly 20 endorsements away, I still very much feel her threat is exaggerated.

I think Nai should publicly appoint someone to take over Lirantha and they should begin tarting. Several have already volunteered to take on the responsibility.

edited because I messed up the quote, the whole thing was quoted...:(
Edited by Anur-Sanur, Jan 27 2011, 09:25 PM.
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CrazyGirl
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So your strategy is to unendorse Kandarin and to endorse the nation right behind her, yet claim we should make the switch now. Actions speak louder than words.
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sedge
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Right, so you judge that enough people have given their approval, but aren't willing to hold a vote? That sounds rather unconvincing to me...
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Thought Transference
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Anur-Sanur
Jan 27 2011, 09:22 PM
...
I already said I think there already has been a vote, there are enough people who would like an attempt to be made. I feel if you put it up to a vote nations will stray from their true feelings. There is evidently enough people who would like an attempt to be made, and Lirantha tarting up would be a small step. I don't see the need to start making nations choose either yes or no definitively. That can happen if Lirantha gets close enough.
...
Now hang on, first (in post #40) you tell us it's tied although as you point out, the vote is one in favour of Nai keeping Kandarin as the Delegate nation:
Quote:
 
i don't believe I have been outvoted
People Who Would Like To See Lirantha Used: 3 Votes
People Who Want Kandarin to Stay: 3 Votes
People Who Aren't Sure/Abstain : 4 Votes

So if anything we are tied. Surely this indicates at least an attempt should be made?

actually I checked again and it is
3
4
3

still enough for an attempt to be made

--- and now you tell us you think there already has been a vote and you brush aside the actual numbers to claim that there are enough people who would like an attempt to be made (to switch nations, I presume). "Enough" being measured how? By being equal to the number of abstentions?

And you further say that if we ask for a "real" vote nations "will stray from their true feelings". Wait; there's already been a vote, but you say that we don't want a "real" vote because you think the nations won't tell us the truth? Do you think so little of TRR that you don't trust your neighbours to vote honestly or competently if they get a "real" vote? And BTW if we didn't have a "real" vote, which in your mind would end up being a false vote because TRRans can't be trusted to vote honestly, what did we have? A false vote in which we apparently told (or almost told) the truth?

So which is it? That we've had a vote in favour of keeping Kandarin and you think that's the same as "let's have Nai switch nations", or that we've not had a vote yet and shouldn't have one because we can't trust the outcome of letting TRRans have a "real" vote?

In the light of what real folks have really said so far, where is your "evidence" for your statement that "there is evidently enough people who would like an attempt to be made". The only "evidence" you've supplied so far is that 4 people have expressed a desire for Nai to stick with Kandarin, 3 people have expressed their desire to change nations, and 3 people aren't bothered either way.

One more thing: you say you "don't see the need to start making nations choose either yes or no definitively". Really? Isn't choosing the idea behind voting? Right now you write like someone who really likes creating smokescreens out of generalities, making vague statements of wishful thinking that you then pass off as facts, and then getting annoyed when other folks aren't convinced. Your argument for this so far is primarily a series of bald assertions which you base on some unsubstantiated assurances that you know what you're talking about even though it all flies in the face of the advice of very experienced people who have been natives of TRR since Methuselah was a boy. Your arguments are candy floss and milkshake foam. We need more than that if we're going to do things the way you suggest.


Despite all that, you should keep in mind (assuming that you know it or you once knew it) that one of the key jobs of the Delegate of TRR is to make security-related decisions like this one by drawing on the advice of TRR residents with the appropriate skills and experience. That's not a failure to consult the people at large, it's an acceptance of one of the specialized duties that comes with such a post. It's the recognition that not all opinions are going to be equal in weight about every decision. Regarding things that could destabilize the Delegacy, I'd rather trust people who belong to TRR and who know about invasions, and especially who know the things that have gone on here in years past, than random outsiders, newcomers or visitors who neither understand how much raiders want to take the TRR Delegacy nor have a working knowledge of how they've gone about trying to take it in the past.
Peace,
TT

Coffee is the cause of all things. (Thales, 2nd ed.)
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Anur-Sanur
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i say three is enough, if only 7 have a real opinion. putting it up to a vote unnecessarily divides us, rather Naivetry should respect that there are residents who would like to see a switch.
again, all I'm saying is enough want a switch considered, so Lirantha can start tarting up now. It is a small step and would be appropriately considerate of the feelings of the residents.

what security risk is generated from Lirantha tarting up? The answer is none.
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Dyr Nasad
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Anur-Sanur
Jan 28 2011, 02:48 AM
what security risk is generated from Lirantha tarting up? The answer is none.
I dont suppose that you'll ever listen (or read)..
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Biyah
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High Priest of the Cult
No, he won't

This has all been argued. The bugger is incapable of understanding.

If this is a vote, then again - NO switch at this time. You do NOT switch while there is a swapper within 15 of the cap. You do NOT leave the delegacy in the hands of a second person in that case.

Anur, you're a f*cking idiot. Grow up.

~B
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Anur-Sanur
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So...all of you were completely ignorant of the unendorsement campaign that has been executed on Angel?
quite disappointing...


She now has less endorsements than I. The situation has changed, Lirantha should tart up immediately.

@Nasad I know their are risks with switching the two nations, however having Lirantha tart independently under the control of another player does not create risks. Kandarin (Nai) will still be in power, and the tarting nation will be TRR friendly.
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sedge
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1. We have to wait for her reaction. This is unlikely to be the end of her attempts to take the region.

2. At the moment, I will make clear I'm worried about your intentions in the region. You un-endorsed Kandarin and have been endo-swapping a lot recently.

3. Even if things were secure - that'd only be a reason to move onto the next stage of the debate (is switching necessary), not to start doing it.
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CrazyGirl
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Anur-Sanur
Jan 28 2011, 06:40 PM
So...all of you were completely ignorant of the unendorsement campaign that has been executed on Angel?
quite disappointing...


Yeah, gee, no clue what happened there.

*tries to stiffle her giggles but fails completely*

Anyhow, that was action. We now await reaction. This isn't over.
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Whamabama
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Anur-Sanur
Jan 28 2011, 06:40 PM


She now has less endorsements than I. The situation has changed, Lirantha should tart up immediately.

@Nasad I know their are risks with switching the two nations, however having Lirantha tart independently under the control of another player does not create risks. Kandarin (Nai) will still be in power, and the tarting nation will be TRR friendly.
Sorry, if Pristine Angel leaves the region, and the WA, we still can't switch safely, because your a threat with your endos, and your tarting the region. Although Pristine angel has not ceased, so there are two threats. Making a switch even more difficult, an more importantly, very foolish to try.
Those who don't create, dictate
The structure of our world and preach hate
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Anur-Sanur
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the point is you obviously overstated the threat Angel posed, when you are able to quickly cut her endorsements.
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CrazyGirl
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Again. This was action. Expect reaction.
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