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| So...this whole saddle consulting thing. What to do? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 9 2013, 12:54 PM (861 Views) | |
| jn4jenny | Mar 9 2013, 12:54 PM Post #1 |
Is the meadow on fire?
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Hi TOCers. I'm looking for advice, but I also need to think this through by writing it out. Sorry that it turned into a novel. I appreciate your suggestions or thoughts on my proposed solution at the bottom. So this Free Saddle Fitter To the World thing has gotten a little out of hand. It's gone from maybe one request a month (about two years ago) to 2-3 requests every week. Times one to five hours per person. Yeah.  Initially, I handled the increasing traffic by "disappearing a little." I've gone almost completely silent on COTH. That proved to be counter-productive because now other COTHers will post in saddle-fitting threads, "You should contact jn4jenny!" Word of mouth gets around in real life, too. It's wonderfully flattering, but it also creates more work! For now, I've called a moratorium on helping people with saddle stuff. I've turned down 6 people in the last three weeks. It's not that I don't enjoy helping people. I find it incredibly rewarding to help someone find the saddle of their dreams within their target budget, however big or small that might be. I don't have a 100% batting average--who does?--but more than a few pro saddle fitters have told me that I am actually more accurate than most paid professionals. And even when people buy something besides what I recommended, they are making a more informed decision because of my advice. And I know what you're thinking at this point: "Uh, so either quit doing it or become a pro saddle fitter." A lot of people, including in the saddle industry, have voted that I go the latter route. I've gotten job offers from several saddle companies + "votes of support" from independent saddle fitters who "want to see more people like me in the industry." Help-seekers are starting to offer to pay for my advice before they even hear it, or they essentially bribe me to break my moratorium by offering a cash sum. But I don't want to be a professional saddle fitter. I'm a busy graduate student with a promising academic future. I am super busy already, and I don't enjoy driving for hours on end, which is what saddle fitters end up doing. If I did a mail-order consulting business like Trumbull Mountain does, then I'd be forced to rep for certain brands, and at least 75% of the reason people consult me is that they recognize that I'm pretty impartial and recognize the pros/cons of most brands on the market. Besides, to really do it "right," I would need more formal training--and if you get GOOD saddle fitting training, that takes weeks or months of time and a fair chunk of $$$ for tuition and travel. Annette Gavin offers a two-day short course that I'm planning to take in November (anybody want to come with?), but that's not the same as getting real, thorough saddle-fitting training. Besides, there's not really training for the sort of thing I do. For example, Society of Master Saddlers credentials focus on wool-flocked saddles. Schleese's saddle fitting training talks up FLAIR panels. And so on, and so forth. Ask me how many saddle fitters I've successfully called out on their marketing-spin BS because whoops, they weren't counting on me knowing why their "gospel" is actually just one of many valid schools of thought. So for awhile, my solution was to make the process more efficient so I could help more people in less time. Emails take a long time to compose, so I've been doing screencast videos (like this one, if you're curious http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GBSIpKPP-Q ) or talking to folks on the phone. But even when people are super nice and grateful--and they usually are--there's just so. many. people. and they need so. much. help. Also, I feel like I end up repeating a lot of information. Obviously, some help is specific to a given shopper and their situation. But 50% of my time is spent giving mini crash courses on topics like these: 1. High withers: there's more than one variety of this fitting problem, and they each call for different fitting solutions, and how to know which one you're dealing with 2. Why perfectly reasonable, rational people get the total misimpression that they have an "unusually long femur"--and how to tell whether you really have one, and how to proceed with your saddle search either way 3. Debriefing certain brand-specific Kool Aids/engineering features and whether they are good or bad for your particular saddle search (examples: the CWD carbon fiber tree, FLAIR panels, Stubben Biomex seat cushioning) 4. Theories about accommodating various equine body types: very wide, extra narrow, swaybacked, young and growing, fresh off the track/underweight, etc. 5. Advice for discipline-switching riders--for example, The Hunter Rider's Guide to Buying a First Dressage Saddle So here's my proposed solution, in two parts: 1. Start a saddle fitting blog that allows me to blog about topics like the ones I describe above, plus many others. Eventually, it might also also function a little like a tech/gadget review blog, meaning that I could get saddle companies to either send me products for review OR go to their headquarters or special events to interview their brand reps. There are a few good saddle fitting blogs already, most notably Kitt Hazelton's old blog for Trumbull Mountain, but they're not doing quite what I'm describing, especially not the cross-brand comparison stuff. And they're certainly not doing what I describe in #2... 2. Continue to take individual requests for help, but find some way to incentivize that structure. I am not willing to take financial payment for services because that opens up a liability nightmare that I don't care to deal with, but I'm planing to speak with a lawyer about whether I could ask for a donation to a horse-related non-profit group in exchange for my advice. If not, I might simply do a "gift economy" thing where folks sign a simple contract saying that if I help them, they agree for me to profile their horse + them (with names and faces removed) on the blog so that others can learn from their fitting situation. That way, instead of helping one person, I'm helping lots of people--and can just direct new "clients" to the relevant blog posts and tell them to come back with follow-up questions. But here's where I need help. I don't know how much my advice is worth. I'm planning to ask some of the people I've helped in the past how much they would have theoretically paid, but in some ways, the question is what people who *don't* know what I'll say would be willing to pay. I am thinking that a flat fee is the most efficient thing since some people need more help than others and you could rack up a huge bill if I charged by the hour. But how much would be enough to weed out the "I'm just asking because I can" people from the "I really need help and I know it" people? Should I even set a limit, or should I say something like "$X or more"? Do I have them donate directly to the non-profit via Paypal and then send me the receipt before I spill my guts, or do I make a more generous model like, "Either you let me feature me on the blog OR you donate to the non-profit group?" For that matter, if I did this, what would you guys like to see me write about or do or whatever? For example, would any of these be of interest? --Post-purchase stories from happy horses and riders showing how the saddle changed their riding or their horse's health --Interviews with particular saddle fitters or saddle repair people --Expanding beyond saddles to interviews or info about other kinds of relevant tack, like corrective/therapeutic saddle pads + girths + etc. --Collaborative videos between trainers and saddle fitters about particular equitation faults that are sometimes related to saddles and sometimes related to equitation, and how to suss out which one applies to you (example: do you have a chair seat because of your saddle's stirrup bar, or do you have a chair seat because your stirrups are way too long?) --other stuff? Suggestions? And am I just out of my mind to give away something that's obviously worth some $$$$ for free? Thanks for listening. Edited by jn4jenny, Mar 9 2013, 07:27 PM.
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| Fish Cheeks | Mar 9 2013, 02:21 PM Post #2 |
You're BANNED!
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I don't think you should give it away - your time is valuable and you should be compensated for it. I don't know why it would be a legal issue for you to get into recommending certain saddles, etc. I mean, if the person tries it and it doesn't work, then it isn't like you made them buy it - you are offering your professional advice based on knowledge and experience. Ultimately, it is up to the horse and rider to decide. Also, if you do start charging people, then you may have a decline in your requests. I remember a farrier I used to work with was having more and more requests to take on new clients. Of course that sounds like a good thing, but there are only so many clients one can have. He was so nice he had a hard time saying no. So what he did was to raise his rates to a certain price point that scared off a lot of people but the people who REALLY wanted him would pay for it. You could do a combination of a blog for very general information, but charge people for specific consultations. I, for one, am interested to know if I have a long femur or not!   I think I do because people always tell me I have long legs, but I feel short. Also, when looking at other people's proportions (like my dance teacher, for example), it looks like their calves are longer than mine and more in proportion. I know it is all relative...
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| gunnar | Mar 9 2013, 06:28 PM Post #3 |
You're BANNED!
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I have a Long femur but I am 5 11! I need a custom saddle! |
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| FlashGordon | Mar 9 2013, 07:07 PM Post #4 |
You're BANNED!
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Jen, short on time, but YOU NEED TO CHARGE PEOPLE!!!!! I  you..... and I think your knowledge is invaluable..... it is so worth a consultation fee!
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| onthebit | Mar 10 2013, 12:21 PM Post #5 |
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Off visiting Candy Cave, be right back.
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I absolutely agree you should charge for your time and knowledge! I also am not sure why you feel charging for your time would open up a liability nightmare. I agree with what FC said, ultimately it is up to the horse and rider to decide. Especially for long distance consultations you cannot be there in person. An hour of a good lawyer's time would get you set up with appropriate releases. I mean, anyone can sue for anything, they could sue you now even though you aren't charging a fee. I do think you should have some generic forms set up for new people (whether you continue to do this free or begin chargin), a packet you can email as a starting point. It could have all of the typical questions/information covered and also have a good questionaire for them to fill out to get you started. I do this with my retirement farm. 99% of people are asking the same questions or have the same concerns, so I have that addressed and ready to attach to an email and send to serious inquiries. I also have a questionaire for them to fill out about their horse. I think you could charge a flat fee that gets someone "X" hours of help, and once that is used up then then an hourly rate applies. You probably already know how long the getting to know you part takes, and can tell people, X% of your time will be used as I review the initial information provided and respond to it, so that will leave with us X minutes/hours whatever to work with. You've put a lot of time and effort into gaining this knowledge and I, for one, would happily pay for your expertise. |
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| Reynard Ridge | Mar 10 2013, 12:49 PM Post #6 |
Drivin' The Short Bus
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Tough one. I'm in the camp that thinks you should be compensated for your expertise. However, what really struck me was that you mention right up from that you are a "busy grad student, facing an excellent academic career." Do you really have time for this? No matter how much money or lack thereof is involved. At what point is the return simply not worth the effort you put into it? I get that you have built an expertise, and are really good at it, but is it something you see yourself doing ten years from now? If yes, then, I love the blog idea. The key, though, is that if you are taking on individual clients, through the blog, you need to charge them. Have you considered a % of the final saddle that they buy as an option? 10-15% of saddle cost? Is that fair? I know that doesn't address the real issue of how long any individual fitting might take, but one imagines it would even out over time? Good luck! |
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| jn4jenny | Mar 17 2013, 09:01 PM Post #7 |
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Is the meadow on fire?
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Hi guys - sorry for the long delay! I was at a big academic conference for most of this past week. I really appreciate everyone's thoughts, and I've been mulling them over. Here's some of my responses and follow-up questions: I agree with Fish Cheeks that charging would help thin the herd. Honestly, I think a lot of people ask me for free help just because they can. But I also think other people would gladly pay $X. If I save someone from trying even just ONE saddle that wouldn't have worked, I have often saved them $20-$80 in shipping or saddle fitter call fees. Not to mention having saved them tons of time. The question is how much the advice is really worth. I'm thinking of trying a flat $50 for X amount of time invested in the search, but I just don't know. I suppose I could just charge whatever I wanted and see if people "bit." I will stay out of the long femur debate for today. I'm on sabbatical, after all. 
Yes, and I could shield myself by forming an LLC. But that would cost money. Consulting a lawyer would cost money. Granted it wouldn't cost a massive PILE of money, but it would cost maybe $200-$500. Which brings us to RR's thoughtful questions...
I do see myself doing it ten years from now, but only in this hobbyist/sideline capacity that I'm doing it in now. I love it, and I'll probably always love it. It's almost genetic: my mother was a skydiver, and she was a major gear head who knew all the different skydiving rigs and helped design and test new ones. But saddles will always be a third passion behind my academic work + my own horse(s). I like the outside-the-box thinking with the percentage option, but I'm not sure it's workable. I already have a problem with people chronically trying to lowball me (God knows why since they'd get better advice if they were candid about their real budgets), and people could just lie about how much they paid for the saddle (since they're not buying it from me anyway). I'm tentatively thinking $50-$60 as a fee that covered an initial screencast consult + a follow-up phone call if the person wished to ask follow-up questions, plus permission for me to feature their horse and their saddle-fit situation on my blog. But I dunno. Edited by jn4jenny, Mar 17 2013, 09:54 PM.
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| WhySoSerious | Mar 17 2013, 09:28 PM Post #8 |
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Off visiting Candy Cave, be right back.
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I think $50 to $60 sounds very fair. I think you're right, people like too all for free advice because they think they can. I also agree a blog would be very useful. How much wolfs you pay someone for a similar service? I think that's a good question to all yourself too. While setting up an LLC is money up front, I think you could easily and fairly quickly recoup the costs and save yourself some trouble. You are very knowledgeable and you've helped a lot of people for free. I can definitely see why you feel taken advantage of. I think some people forget that time is money and honestly if someone will help them for free, they'd take that route before paying someone for essentially enter same service. So definitely charge and definitely keep doing what you're doing. You've helped plenty of people already and there are a lot more people who could benefit from your invaluable advice. I'm also curious as to what a long femur really is proportion wise.
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| c'est moi | Mar 19 2013, 10:11 PM Post #9 |
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Weanling
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I agree that you should be compensated for your work. That said, I've certainly learned quite a bit from your free advice via COTH posts, and I would be sad to see that disappear. I like your idea of a blog where you charge individual clients but still educate the public at large. I have to say I'm actually a bit surprised that you've gone this long without seeking compensation for your services, but I take that as a sign that you are just a more generous person than most, which is ultimately a good quality. Best of luck with whatever path you select. |
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| ShadowMare | Mar 22 2013, 04:02 PM Post #10 |
We're on a bridge, Chaaaaaaaaarlie!
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Oh, Jenny, I just had to comment on your situation! I will NEVER be able to thank you enough for all the help you gave me a couple of years ago when I was trying to saddle fit her Royal Shadow Mare Self, Miss Fancy! You taught me so much in your emails and your pictures with the arrows and circles pointing areas out that you were describing. You really do have an amazing talent in not just knowing how to FIT tack, but how to explain it to PEOPLE! Certainly, you should be paid for your efforts, and I think C'est Moi has the right idea: do a blog (which allows you to control how much time/effort you put in as this is not your main line of endeavor) and then charge the individual clients you want to take on. If you do decide to do a blog, be sure to post here that you have done that! I, for one, would really enjoy reading anything you have to say and would pass the word, especially to anyone who could be a paying client! GO for it. |
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| goodhors | Mar 22 2013, 06:20 PM Post #11 |
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We're on a bridge, Chaaaaaaaaarlie!
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Guess I haven't been paying attention to your saddle fitting adventures. However as the wife of a self-employed husband and daughter, you need to charge for your time, expertise, tools used and costs like fuel. I would think an hourly rate is going to be your best method, with perhaps a mileage fee ADDED ON for driving long distances. And I would go with a cost like $60 and hour, which sounds excessive, but TRULY is not for what you give in return. I see SO MANY women, Farriers come to mind first, that don't charge enough to even cover their basics. They are the ones everyone calls for the "cheap trims" or hoof advice because often those ladies don't charge at all or are so sympathetic about customer "being broke" that they end up going out of business. Yes you want to HELP horse and customer, but owning equines is a costly experience! It is NOT THE JOB of the Equine Professional (Vet, Farrier, Masseuse, Dental person) to PAY for the customer's horse expenses!! Or subsidize the customer who wants to own equines by giving discounted rates for their services! As mentioned, the Farrier who raised his rates and weeded out the cheaper folks unwilling to pay for his expertise, which gave him about the same income and a LOT more time for himself, is a GREAT example. He has basic expenses, vehicle, insurance, fuel, cost of materials, which set his price base. He then has to add to that base by what it cost him to travel to barns, time to work on each horse, and come up with fees that leave him enough money above those basics to live on, pay for his groceries, housing, clothing, family expenses, TAXES, Social Security, some savings for old age. A saddle fitter should charge accordingly, because you are putting in the same kind of work, have the same kind of expenses to cover, profits could cover your schooling instead of getting loans to pay for it. You are putting in extra money in getting more training in your sklls, attending clinics, which are not free. Makes you more desireable in a broader spread of knowledge to use on the customer. I have to say the flat fee is going to leave you coming up on the short end, unless you make it BIG to cover a multi-hour visit and fitting. If visit doesn't take you that long, great, you STILL keep ALL the money. You need to value yourself enough to charge well for your services. Sounds like you have a lot of fans that think you provide a GREAT service, requests from Professional Companies to work for them, you need to be compensated adequately for that service. I do believe that you will still get requests to fit saddles, though the numbers will be greatly reduced from when they were free by charging an adequate fee. It will let you pick and choose whom you wish to consult with, dates coordinated with your school scheduling or available time, so you are not overwhelmed with calls. Sorry to say in my experience, that providing services free or at reduced costs, don't let folks value the services like if they pay (well) for them. Folks use the cheap Farrier, then complain if they lame a horse or cause other problems. They don't usually want to pay for the Farrier who acts professionally, has skills learned that cover a vast array of horse needs. Customers like that just never "get it" about the difference in skill sets of the Farriers, all they see is what it costs. If you give away the knowledge, help, or whatever you know, if you even get a "Thanks" you are lucky. I do hope you continue saddle fitting, sounds like you have a lot to give the customers, and will even be BETTER in those 10 years! Charge well for those skills, get a good compensation for your work, even if it is a second career. You will STILL make horses and owners happy with correct fitting, so they can work well together. |
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| ShadowMare | Mar 25 2013, 01:04 PM Post #12 |
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We're on a bridge, Chaaaaaaaaarlie!
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So, Jenny, have you made any decisions about this saddle fitting idea? |
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| RHowell | Mar 29 2013, 04:19 AM Post #13 |
You're BANNED!
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I first must say, I'm clearly living under a posting rock, as I didn't realize until a few months ago when you and I were chatting about something else that you did have this interest in saddle fitting. I have found a very effective way to not lose too much time is to "not go there" in the first place. And, I got back at least an hour of my life each day by simply not opening threads on horse bulletin boards... So.... Personally? If it's not what you want to do as a career I'd start weaning myself off of it and just say "no" to people and blog if you think it will be fun to you. And then pick horses for the blog that you think are interesting cases and if people want you to help them and you want to help them, go the "donation to a charity" route--that's what I've done when I don't want to be taken advantage of, but don't really want to profit. Like when I've parked people's trailers at my barn because their barn owners, for God knows what reason, would like to collect board, but not the trailers that come with boarding horses....then I've asked for a donation to the charity that I'm work with...or something similar. Oh, and Anyplace, if you happen to read this....I miss your buck and van. My favorite guest horse trailer. |
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| jn4jenny | Mar 29 2013, 01:57 PM Post #14 |
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Is the meadow on fire?
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Hi SM--So good to hear from you! Yes, I've made a few tentative decisions. One is that I'll definitely keep going and not hang up my hat. The other decision is that I'm probably going to stay on sabbatical for at least another 30 days because that's when the spring semester ends at my university, which will free up my schedule and give me additional time to crystallize my plans. It also means I get zero frustrated emails from saddle shoppers and lots of happy emails from folks that I advised just before the sabbatical ended. It's always nice to hear that my advice worked out and the horse + rider are very happy, especially when it's a saddle that the rider wouldn't have considered if I hadn't mentioned it. I've got some ideas about the structure this "business" (or community service project, if I go with a donation model) might take. Long story short, my next step is to speak with a lawyer. I have free access to lawyers at my university's student legal services office, and they can give me some broad-stroke advice + possibly do some of the simple contract drafting + suggest how many hours of paid equine attorney time + incorporation fees I might incur if I structure the business according to models A, B, or C. And I'll decide from there. It will definitely be 95% online stuff, including a formal intake form + required pictures if you want an individual online consultation + a response in the form of a screencast + a follow-up phone call. I rarely make farm calls now, and I'm not interested in doing more of them. For those of you suggesting that I "don't value myself or my time"…LOL! Trust me, I don't have a problem valuing myself. When I do freelance editorial work, I charge $60 per hour and sometimes more if it's a rush job. I'm on a full scholarship to graduate school with guaranteed living expenses for five years with an option to apply for a sixth year, and I'm on a variety of paid project teams for work. I'm basically working a 50-to-55-hour work week. I don't have trouble getting people to pay me for my time. But I think of saddle consulting differently, more like community service. And although I am obviously very short on time, I'm not satisfied to help just a few dozen folks a month. I want to help the entire country make better, more informed choices about their saddles. All of that said, I need that business to at least pay for itself and act as traffic control. With the existing model, I'm helping maybe 5 to 10 folks per month and they're the only ones who benefit. With this new model, I could perhaps help 2 to 4 folks per month but blog about it so that dozens more people benefit from the information. Anyway, thanks to everyone for their thoughts (and I'd love to hear more of them!). This has been super helpful in thinking about how to proceed. |
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| vxf111 | Apr 1 2013, 10:21 AM Post #15 |
You're BANNED!
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Really late to the game. I think your idea of a blog and willingness to freelance for a fee that makes you happy/thins the masses is a terrific idea. With the blog you'd be at your own mercy/schedule regarding how frequently you updated and topics. You could also hit enough common topics that you'd obviate the need for so much 1-on-1 consulting. And then you could decide what other consulting you chose to do as you had time. I'd read your blog! You might also get "guest" bloggers from time to time which would take even more load off you/expand the content. I could see the blog being a really useful resource. |
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