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Update on our venture
Topic Started: Sep 8 2012, 01:19 PM (7,376 Views)
jillincolorado
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The plot thickens...TRACTORS and heavy equipment. :) How exciting that you met your "neigh"bors on TOB.

I can't remember what you originally posted, so refresh my feeble mind; how big of a place is this again?
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Boston
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It'll be an adventure! We're going on an adventure!
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jillincolorado
Oct 1 2012, 09:18 PM
I can't remember what you originally posted, so refresh my feeble mind; how big of a place is this again?
I was just thinking that I forget the stats of the place. I am SO SO excited for you guys, Flashy!!
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FlashGordon
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It is 120 acres but actually feels bigger than that..... it is very hilly, very wooded, lots of trails/roads and I suspect I will get lost a lot at first! There is an indoor, 17 stall barn, multiple pastures (which are absolutely massive, speaking of getting lost, I will lose horses in these fields too I am sure) two manicured grass fields for riding, one large outdoor sand rings, one oversized round ring w/sand. One of the grass fields we are going to turn into a hunt course.

Also along the side of the indoor there is a concrete pad they put in with the intention of adding more stalls on. I don't think we will do that, but I can think of other things to do with that spot... maybe put an overhang and turn it into outdoor grooming spaces or something.

Plus the 15 cabins, main lodge, smaller lodge, house, lake, basketball court. We would like to add a pool and tennis courts at some point.

The farm in front of us is 30-40 acres and we share a driveway with them. They also have an indoor, barn, multiple rings and pasture. However given the layout and the hills, we can't see them from our farm and they can't see us. So weird!

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Robin
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I am going to suggest a different approach on implements. I would get at least
two older tractors, a small one such as a Ford 8N or NAA and a bigger one to
handle things like the round bales and snow removal. We get by out here in
the Minneapolis/St Paul area with just a bucket and a back blade on our bigger
tractor, but you may well want a snow blower. Get a carry all for the small
tractor (which needs to have a 3 point) and you can use it in place of an ATV
and also have it for real farm jobs when that is called for.

You are either going to have to learn to do fix-it or have a handiman type on
staff I believe. I can't see how one could run a camp such as yours and not
have pretty constant jobs that will require fixing.

By the way, fixing older tractors is easier than one might suspect. They are
much more obvious machines than modern cars. Also, 50 year old tractors
are not really unusual and often are just chugging along as they have for years.

Let me know if you ever decide you need a "fancy" grooming vacuum. The
makers of the Electro-Groom (those heavy light blue things) is in my area
and used machines go for $100-$200 in my area regularly.
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onthebit
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Mr. Onthebit is an equipment expert. He grew up on a 3000 acre farm of prime farmland and then farmed 1500 acres himself. He calls our 150 acres the "tonka toy" farm. Our big tractor is 90hp, 4WD which he feels is barely big enough when pulling the 15' bushhog on the hills. For most of our uses it is more tractor than we need but for a few of the hills be wishes it had more hp. Also since you mention hills you need a 4WD tractor and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise. For most of our tractor work we use our 30 year old, 65hp, 2WD Kubota. It is so reliable, more so than the big tractor that was bought new. He frequently comments that most horse people have no idea how close they are to putting themselves in danger using tractors that are the wrong size for the job.

Our other most handy thing is our kubota utility vehicle with dump bed. We also have a gator with a dump bed but the kubota is way better.

Keep in mind you don't have to own every piece of equipment for every job. That is another thing horse people do that makes Mr. Onthebit shake his head. Owning, operating and insuring equipment is expensive. For years we paid someone to bushhog our farm three times per year. It was, and still is, cheaper to hire it done than own all the equipment and spend the time doing it ourselves. We inherited the big bushhog this year when my dad died and we still haven't decided if we will continue to mow ourselves or sell it and go back to hiring that work done. Mr. Onthebit's advice would be to learn how much it costs you to own and run any piece of equipment per hour and then see if it is smarter to own it or not own it. We have to have at least one tractor to do loader work but we still found it was actually more cost effective to pay for bushhogging and some other things.
Edited by onthebit, Oct 2 2012, 01:28 PM.
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MayaTy02
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wow great advice onthebit!! My onthebit knows his stuff!

FG, keep us in the loop on next steps!! we are in this with you ;)
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Trialbyfire
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I think the FG family will have to make a business trip to the OTB farm! ;) **Jealous!!!!**

OTB - you are a great resource for running a larger farm - my farm is now only 20 acres but it was 7 when we started. So...even my tractor might be too small IF I had to brush hog and/or work any of the additional acreage. But we don't actually use most of the property and have very few hills, so my advice will not necessarily be appropriate for a 150 acre 40 horse property!!

I do agree about owning too much equipment. Even we have a few things we NEVER use....and could easily share them with someone else or rent them once in a while (e.g. we have a PTO driven wood chipper. We did use it when we got it, but most of the time it is in storage. :mallet: ) We also have two rollers (why? who knows?) and a big chain harrow lift that we never use (we just put the small part of the harrow directly on the tractor)...so that big piece of junk is behind my barn. For the size of our small property we could easily have used that $250 4' version from Tractor Supply. Live and learn.

Extra equipment is bad because it harbors bees and weeds. And who has time to spend weed-wacking around the crap that you don't use? Especially when you're likely to get stung! ;)
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FlashGordon
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Interesting about hiring out some of the work... that is something we have talked about, because on the farm where Mr. FG used to do the camp thing (which was 800 acres, 600 of which were wooded) a lot of stuff was just hired out. Lawn service in the summer, plow service in the winter were the two big things. There is less lawn at this place than the old one, so might be cheaper/easier to just get someone to do the grass.

The camp owner had mentioned her son might be interested in the plowing, which would be great, as he's obviously familiar with the property. Especially since our closing date is Dec. 21 and we will have enough to worry about trying to move in.

OTB I'm glad you popped in, I've been thinking of you guys and hope all is well. <3

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onthebit
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Trialbyfire
Oct 2 2012, 08:40 AM
Extra equipment is bad because it harbors bees and weeds. And who has time to spend weed-wacking around the crap that you don't use? Especially when you're likely to get stung! ;)
So well put TBF! I call the area around the equipment shed a graveyard. All this stuff that was bought and then is rarely to never used. What a waste of time and money. And, like you said, you have to find a way to mow around it all!!

I'm not trying to sound preachy about equipment, we own plenty, but one concept we always keep in mind is that our farm is a business and not a hobby. The numbers have to work. I can't imagine not having a 4WD tractor, or a tractor without a loader for example. But life without a bushhog, so easy and headache free. Mr. Onthebit was mowing on Sunday with our inherited 15' bushhog (which is an actual Bushhog brand, very heavy duty, almost brand new, very few hours on it) and when he had about 10 minutes left before he was done a hydraulic line snapped. That meant he couldn't raise the wings up on it to get it out of the pasture (the implement itself is wider than 15' so he couldn't get through the gate) so he had to fix the thing RIGHT then. What a PITA.

Anyway, one thing Mr. Onthebit says is that equipment does not make us money. It allows us to get some necessary work done but a newer tractor for example doesn't add to our bottom line as long as the ones we have are getting the job done. So many farmers get themselves into trouble by spending too much money on equipment, buying equipment that doesn't cashflow itself, or buying equipment they don't need. Our farm isn't a hobby farm it is a business so the numbers have to work.

Mr. Onthebit does not believe in brand loyalty and would advise you to buy whatever brand you can most easily get parts and service for. If there are Kubota dealers all over buy a Kubota. If there are Case dealers, or John Deere, or whatever everywhere then buy one of those. Easily accomplished parts and service are your friend. Farm equipment - all of it - is made to break so you want to be able to get parts and service as easily as possible. You will think of me making that statement often when dealing with broken equipment on your farm!!

This spring our old manure spreader finally gave up the ghost and was beyond repair. Mr. Onthebit perused Craigslist and found a great deal on a 45 year old John Deere manure spreader. He bought it for $600. I couldn't believe he bought it and all of his farmer friends were teasing him as well. But he said he looked it over thoroughly and it was in great shape, looked like it had hardly been used, and just needed to be serviced. Well, we got it home, Mr. Onthebit serviced it, and then we immediately started spreading all of our compost piles. We ran 100 loads through that 45 year old spreader in four days and it ran perfectly - for $600!!! You don't have to break the bank on equipment. Mr. Onthebit said if the spreader broke and could never be used again after our 100th load he would have more than gotten his money out of that purchase. Most people would have spent thousands on a new, or newer, model but it isn't always necessary.
Edited by onthebit, Oct 2 2012, 01:47 PM.
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LostFarmer
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OTB you and I are in agreement. I farm 390 acres of hay and grain. Then run 400 more in pasture for cattle. We don't have to fight the brush hogging like you eastern folks though. Anyhow we have some newer equipment. The New Holland skidsteer loader was new 5 years ago. (we have a post pounder, hay fork, hay grapple, pallet fork, and bucket for it. I want to add a snow blower to the list.) Then the manure spreader that was new 9 years ago. Balers are 15 years old, grain combine is a 1981 model, the new tractor is a 1983 and the older ones are a 1956 and 1968. The 1968 140 horse power tractor finally needed and engine overhaul. It was $8,500 which is a chunk of change but other used tractors of that size are similar in price and this one now has a new engine. Those older machines are very simple to mechanic on. I can do most and I have a mechanic friend that we call when needed.

We also hire out some items. We hire a neighbor with a big 45 foot air seeder to come plant the barley. We hire a spray rig to spray when needed on the big fields. I also hire out to do some custom swathing, raking, baling and stacking for others. It allows me to spread the cost of some equipment out over more acreage. I have linked a reference that I use to Custom Hire Rates to figure out what it costs to do it or hire it done. It is a valuable thing for me. Not sure how applicable it is to your region but I am sure there is a similar reference available. This is a good way to run numbers to see if something will pencil. For me I try to hire the things that take the most time when I have the least available time. For example the planting always comes when I am busy calving cows and fixing fence to get pastures ready in the spring.

Good luck on the adventure.

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Onelanerode
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No advice here, but I'm reading this thread and your COTH thread with avid curiosity. It sure makes the prospect of owning a 10-acre farm a lot less daunting. :)
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TatteredDaydreamer
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OMG FG....I'm so excited for you! What an awesome adventure you're about to begin. SO SO excited for you!!
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Barn Girl
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OTB is totally right about service and buying the brand that has a dealer near you. That's why we're so pissed right now at John Deere-- our dealer was 5 minutes away, the closest other tractor dealer is 45 min. away. We bought all JD stuff and they recently shut him down because of their stupid "numbers" game and their favoritism towards the huge JD dealer in the area. (He sold a lot of stuff but these other guys have a huge store, he was just a little country guy, he couldn't possibly produce the sales volume that they wanted.) Stuff breaks ALL the time and it's really aggravating to deal with. Hopefully Mr. FG is a handy type, if he's not, find a good handyman to keep on call!

We have too much unused and/or rarely used equipment as well, I hate it but Mr. BG just loves buying farm equipment. Drives me nuts! :mallet:

Besides hiring out mowing, around here you can call Southern States to put down lime, fertilizer, etc. They lime our big hay fields for us because it's more cost effective than us doing it.

A good 4wd tractor with a loader is worth it's weight in gold in snow... we don't get much here but had 3' a few winters ago and would've been marooned out here had we not had the tractor to dig us out. I actually got my 4wd Jeep stuck in the driveway during that storm and had to pull it out with the John Deere! :teehee:
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JanM
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Because of the lead time, I think you need to develop your camp name, logo, and order polo shirts, and tshirts for whenever you go to a camp event, or even the PTA. I would wear them everywhere and always have a few brochures with you that include the basic facts and great pictures. You also need to have the contact information and website info and put that on the brochure also. And business cards ready to go (you need a lot of them). You can even do a great picture of the best view of the camp also. I would also get the magnetic signs for all vehicles (including relatives if you can get them to do it) with the camp name, and website or phone number on both sides of the vehicle. And I would call every newspaper and tv station, and pitch stories to them about the history of the place, and how your family is moving there and keeping the traditions going. I think they'll love the story of how you met also, which gives you a chance to tell people how experienced you are a running camps too. And you'll need tons of tshirts with the logo and camp name for all of the staff and counselors.

This whole venture is so exciting, and I know you'll give thousands of kids and grownups great camping experiences, and wonderful memories.

Because the cabins and other areas need the most attention, then I wouldn't do anything to the house except maybe pain inside if it's really bad, or remove rugs if they're nasty. For temporary floor coverings you can get cheap vinyl remnants or rug pieces at the big box stores, and they keep the (sorry they're cheap, but usually ugly) cheaper stuff in the back of the flooring department. That would give you time to work on the camp, and at the end of the season you can decide exactly what you want to do to the house, and do things over the off season. With the house I would just weed as much stuff out of your current house as you can, while keeping the stuff you really need. Storing and shipping or living with something you don't need is a pain.
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FlashGordon
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Ironically it is the house that really needs the most work!! I think she put her money into the indoor, rings, footing, etc. and neglected the house. It is neat and clean but really outdated and I am sure some of the mechanics will need updating. The cabins need interior paint and we need to update some of the beds, also buying new mattresses. The shower rooms in the main lodge will get the first makeover.

We seem to be having people come out of the woodwork willing to help... my sister's friend is a master plumber and can help us with the shower room project. My mom's friend lives out that way and is now retired, and quite handy, so has offered to help us out with some projects. There seems to be a good community of farm/horse people and I think we may be able to hire neighbors who DO have equipment to take care of some of the stuff we can't tackle ourselves.

OTB like you said, this is a business, not a hobby, so everything is about the bottom line. Obviously we are aiming to offer a quality camp experience but we do have to be mindful of costs. We have a very extensive business plan and have gone over our numbers carefully, and estimated high for most of these things... but still, wherever we can find cost savings, that is a good thing.

I may have to send Mr. FG down to hang out with Mr. OTB and get bootcamp on farm equipment. LOL. It's been awhile since he's done any of this stuff!

Jan good marketing ideas, I'm all over that stuff, since that's what I do for a living. The big question is when to get rolling on that for real, since we will not close until December, and that scares me a bit.... Ideally I would have liked to be taking deposits on enrollments come Nov. 1 but I am not sure I am comfortable doing that until we are closed, but we may have to take a calculated risk... maybe accept enrollments with a very minimal deposit in case, god forbid, something happens and the whole thing falls apart. I'd think by November though we should be pretty secure in terms of inspections, appraisals, financing etc.

I'm dying to get out there and get to know the horses a little bit! Hopefully soon. The owner seems to want to meet with us and go over a lot of things so that will be immensely helpful.
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