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dog kills pregnant owner; sad days indeed
Topic Started: Aug 16 2011, 08:37 AM (1,514 Views)
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kady05
Aug 17 2011, 12:51 PM
FWIW, I had a friend that received 50 stitches in her hand from a bite from a... Chihuahua. ANY breed can bite, ANY breed can do damage. To say a Pomeranian can't is silly.. we had one at the shelter that put a couple holes in one of the staff, actually.

BSL is pretty much the equivalent to racism. Should we ban black men because statistically, they're more likely to commit murder? Don't think that would go over very well!
Wasn't saying couldn't bite or do damage...was saying he could not kill. That to me is a difference
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kady05
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gunnar
Aug 17 2011, 02:04 PM
I didn't mean those shoes Kady. Your proposals are great and want I wanted to hear. Just wish they worked.
I wish they worked too, trust me. I wish I could talk sense into the BYB's I come across on an almost weekly basis that breed the crap out of their females just to make a buck.. but people are greedy.

Oh, I also forgot to mention. A lot of the time when "Pit Bulls" attack, they aren't truly Pit Bulls. Pit Bull is a generic term, most use it to abbreviate the APBT, American Pit Bull Terrier. APBT's shouldn't be any bigger than maybe 60lbs. (males) full grown, they are NEVER 100lb. dogs. Those dogs are generally NOT the ones involved in attacks.. the ones that are bred to be huge and crossed with other breeds are. That is one of the problems going on as well.. people are taking the APBT and crossing them with guardian breeds, like Mastiffs, Cane Corsos, etc., to try to create some "ultimate dog" I guess. So you have a dog that was specifically bred to be extremely human friendly, crossed with a breed that's naturally more weary of people.. and that can be a bad recipe.

As for the intact male thing, well, I've been around numerous intact male dogs (Sako included) and have never noticed any higher rate of aggression.. shoot, go to a dog show and observe, EVERY dog there is intact and you very rarely hear of any incidents. It's about proper management in that case. Sako is by far my most submissive, wussy dog, and he's intact LOL.

Annnd to lighten the mood..

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Edited by kady05, Aug 17 2011, 03:16 PM.
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Kassandra
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kady05
Aug 17 2011, 03:14 PM
As for the intact male thing, well, I've been around numerous intact male dogs (Sako included) and have never noticed any higher rate of aggression.. shoot, go to a dog show and observe, EVERY dog there is intact and you very rarely hear of any incidents. It's about proper management in that case. Sako is by far my most submissive, wussy dog, and he's intact LOL.
I have been around thousands of dogs, intact male dogs can and often are more aggressive, just like many stallions are more aggressive than geldings. Whether an intact male dog or intact horse, it takes a different type of training and raising to not allow them to be aggressive and/or difficult. Obviously people at a dog show are not typical dog owners.

I know of many dogs whose owners have refused to cut their male dogs, and now have dogs that cannot be around people or other dogs. I also have known many who have been transformed by simply having their balls cut off.

To say that it makes no difference is ridiculous.
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JanM
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Some of the most vicious dogs on 'Dog Whisperer' were the tiniest, most vicious Chihuahuas I've ever seen, and they've done some damage too. Plus I believe there was a really vicious mini Dachshund (or however you spell it).

Years ago I read an article in Dog World about a study of over 1,000 dog attacks, with the concentration on fatalities. Virtually all of the animals involved were taught to be vicious because they were guarding contraband for the owners. I don't think very many animals do this without warning, unless there is some kind of brain defect or tumor, but they certainly will if they've been abused their entire life.

The case a few years ago in San Francisco was a boy killed by the male pit when the female pit was in heat, and the dog had gone after the boy before too. The boy's mother (who got a jail sentence) had to go out, so she put the boy in the cellar and told him to stay there because the dog would hurt him, and when she returned home her son was dead. With thinking like that woman's there is no way to stop attacks, and to safeguard others. And yes, apparently they were the worst kind of breeders, who breed only for money and don't care about temperament or anything but cash. Many times the animals involved have already attacked and the owner did nothing (remember the woman in Colorado killed feeding her horses by a wandering pack that had attacked a passing jogger months before?).

I don't think breed laws are fair for responsible owners who socialize and confine their animals humanely and properly, but the people who are dog fighters or the ones who get a breed that has a bad rep just so the owner looks tough then they might at least give the authorities the power to do something about irresponsible owners.
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jillincolorado
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kady05
Aug 17 2011, 03:14 PM
As for the intact male thing, well, I've been around numerous intact male dogs (Sako included) and have never noticed any higher rate of aggression.. shoot, go to a dog show and observe, EVERY dog there is intact and you very rarely hear of any incidents. It's about proper management in that case. Sako is by far my most submissive, wussy dog, and he's intact LOL.

I have no dog in this fight *eye roll at self* but really, Kady to say that un-neutered males are no less aggressive is just :sigh:

We all know you are a lover of pit bulls (or whatever PC term they are being called these days) but really, they are being over bred in staggering numbers and they are NOT for every owner and every situation.

A chihuahua can give you a nasty bite, but they are not BRED to KILL and I doubt they go for your juggular in a weak moment. That's the difference. Point of fact is that people don't breed labrador retrievers to fight in the ring. Yes they can bite, but it's not what they were BRED to do.

Even Greyhounds that are CAT SAFE will chase a moving object. It's what they are BRED TO DO. I warned new owners numerous times NOT to trust them with their little furry friends, particularly when they are in a new enviornment (like your backyard). I can not tell you how many sad sad stories I heard about the greyhound killing their cat/rabbit/small dog because "they got along just fine in the house".

Does this mean that every pit bull will kill? Nope. But it does mean that you have to be aware with certain individuals that there are triggers that are beyond MOST owners' capacity? You bet.

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kady05
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jillincolorado
Aug 17 2011, 06:13 PM
I have no dog in this fight *eye roll at self* but really, Kady to say that un-neutered males are no less aggressive is just :sigh:

We all know you are a lover of pit bulls (or whatever PC term they are being called these days) but really, they are being over bred in staggering numbers and they are NOT for every owner and every situation.

A chihuahua can give you a nasty bite, but they are not BRED to KILL and I doubt they go for your juggular in a weak moment. That's the difference. Point of fact is that people don't breed labrador retrievers to fight in the ring. Yes they can bite, but it's not what they were BRED to do.

Even Greyhounds that are CAT SAFE will chase a moving object. It's what they are BRED TO DO. I warned new owners numerous times NOT to trust them with their little furry friends, particularly when they are in a new enviornment (like your backyard). I can not tell you how many sad sad stories I heard about the greyhound killing their cat/rabbit/small dog because "they got along just fine in the house".

Does this mean that every pit bull will kill? Nope. But it does mean that you have to be aware with certain individuals that there are triggers that are beyond MOST owners' capacity? You bet.
Just giving my personal experience, in the hundreds, if not thousands of dogs I've worked with/around, I have not noticed a higher level of HUMAN aggression with intact males. Dog aggression, sure, although I've seen numerous DA neutered males as well.

I never said they weren't being over bred, or were for every owner. No breed is for every person. I could never deal with a herding breed. I wish half the people that owned Pit Bulls didn't, would make for a lot less "mess" for the responsible owners of them to clean up! Most people aren't responsible for their dogs (and I'm not just talking Pit Bull owners here). They treat them like children and think Fluffy can do no wrong. Or, they completely drop the ball when it comes to socialization and then expect the dog to be okay in every situation that's thrown at it.

Pit Bulls weren't bred to kill people. They were bred for dog on dog combat. Dog aggression and human aggression have absolutely zero relation.. many people confuse this, this think that a dog that is DA = HA too.

Oh and FWIW, here's a story of a Labrador pup that killed and ate a baby: http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20081105_14_A1_hProse361498
Just because a dog is small, or a "nice" breed, doesn't mean it can't kill a human.
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Trialbyfire
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[quote/] Just giving my personal experience, in the hundreds, if not thousands of dogs I've worked with/around, I have not noticed a higher level of HUMAN aggression with intact males. Dog aggression, sure, although I've seen numerous DA neutered males as well.[/quote]

I wrote a post that I somehow deleted earlier ( :mallet: :mallet: ) but I was going to say the same thing....the unneutered males is one thing, but when you pair that dog with the owner who refuses "to cut" their dog.....well, then you've got an extreme overload of testosterone. So I believe it impacts the training and environment as well.

The typical "dog show" owner would probably not hesitate to neuter the aggressive male dog (or at least would hesitate to breed such a dog), but that is not a typical owner. The "typical" owner of a pit bull/bully dog (sorry Kady) is an uneducated punk who lives in a ghetto. I *know* that is not how many (so many!) of these dogs live, but that is where they came from....and you can include all the white trash uneducated punks as well.

Most "bully" breeders (in my opinion) aren't "breeding for money"....they are allowing their unneutered/unspayed pit/mutt x pit/mutt to breed, and hope to make a few bucks off the litter. "Breeding for money" suggests that there is some sort of business plan involved, and I doubt there is, in most cases. So the bitch has 10 puppies, they sell 3, the rest get given away, abandoned, or dropped at the shelter. THIS is the real problem.
Edited by Trialbyfire, Aug 17 2011, 06:53 PM.
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Lady I just want to say love that picture of ur dog in his glasses. He looks like a good boy. :)
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jillincolorado
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I never said they were bred to kill people. ;) You're reading too much into this in defense of your breed, which I get. Greyhounds have to have to same docile attitude towards their handlers or they get the ax as well.

You're also forgetting that I stated earlier that I have NEVER met a pitty that I didn't like. ;)

Wilson looks particularly adorable in his glasses. :)


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Jersey Fresh
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Based on previous discussions about dogs on this board, I dont know how you could post this topic and not expect it to turn into a pits are bad/pits are good arguement. :huh:

Fact is regardless of anything the woman and her child are dead which is very sad.
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JanM
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The most horrific and vicious attack on a child occured when I lived in New Mexico years ago. An isolated community (a strange one too from my experience) had two owners who let their Rottweillers run loose (they owned two each) and pack up. There were multiple complaints, visits from animal control, and nothing was done. A little boy playing in his own backyard and the dogs attacked and mauled him, and he had to be life flighted to Albuquerque. He barely survived, and will have permanent horrible injuries. The dog owners tried every excuse in the book, but the only repercussions for them were a couple of minor tickets from AC, and a civil suit from the parents. When owners of dogs let them run and attack and for some reason ignore acts by their animals, and a clear predisposition then I must conclude that the owners get a charge out of having vicious, dangerous animals and are basically sociopaths who care nothing about any one but themselves. I also understand that the dogs were put down, but not by animal control, (apparently a vigilante after the dogs were released to the owners on the promise they would be confined properly, and the animals were running loose when they were shot to death). It's not breed specific, but owner specific in the case of known aggressive and dangerous animals.
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kady05
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Jersey Fresh
Aug 18 2011, 04:14 AM
Based on previous discussions about dogs on this board, I dont know how you could post this topic and not expect it to turn into a pits are bad/pits are good arguement. :huh:

Fact is regardless of anything the woman and her child are dead which is very sad.
Right.. that's why I get a little defensive.. it was quite obvious what this thread was going to turn into. I tried to stay quiet but I have a problem with biting my tongue.

Anyway. BAD RAP (the rescue I mentioned earlier that is in CA) did a blog post on this: http://badrap-blog.blogspot.com/2011/08/reflections-on-case-in-pacifica-ca.html

It's a good read.
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MyGiantPony
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I had a pittie - she was a stray that turned up on my doorstep - skin and bones and stank to high heaven. I told her if she got along with Edwina the Basset, she could stay.

They were best of buddies until Edwina died.

Something happened to Checkers though - something in her head snapped, and she went from being a sweet, sociable titty baby to very dog aggressive, and ended up gettng loose from my son and killing a neighbor's dog. Needless to say, we had her pts that week.

I'll never own another pittie - not because I don't love the breed, but because I no longer have the time or energy for ANY kind of terrier.

That said, my niece has 3 - they are awesome - and I can get my booboo pittie face fix any time I want.

And you know what I find sort of curious - I have yet to meet a vet who didn't love pitties.
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kady05
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MyGiantPony
Aug 18 2011, 06:06 AM
Something happened to Checkers though - something in her head snapped, and she went from being a sweet, sociable titty baby to very dog aggressive, and ended up gettng loose from my son and killing a neighbor's dog. Needless to say, we had her pts that week.
Wow.. that's sad.. you had a dog PTS for displaying a perfectly normal breed trait :no:
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kady05
Aug 18 2011, 06:11 AM
MyGiantPony
Aug 18 2011, 06:06 AM
Something happened to Checkers though - something in her head snapped, and she went from being a sweet, sociable titty baby to very dog aggressive, and ended up gettng loose from my son and killing a neighbor's dog. Needless to say, we had her pts that week.
Wow.. that's sad.. you had a dog PTS for displaying a perfectly normal breed trait :no:
That wasn't her first attempt. In a very short period of time, she attacked my other neighbor's dog, my sister's dog and actually broke her leash to get at another neighbor's ancient beagle. Mrs. A was 86 at the time, got knocked down and could have been seriously injured.

Like I said, something snapped in her head. My vet thinks she was probably used as a bait dog, based on her scarring patterns.

Killing a dog was the last straw for me.

I look at it as we gave her several very happy, loving, safe years and a peaceful release from whatever demons finally got her.
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