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| EPSM diet; Oh Tarragon -- I have another question! | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 12 2009, 11:35 AM (182 Views) | |
| Delia | Oct 12 2009, 11:35 AM Post #1 |
Is the meadow on fire?
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Has anyone here transitioned a horse onto the diet, and if so, how long did it take you to see an improvement? I've never had one with this problem before, so I'm fairly clueless. My trainer's mom has loaned me a 6-year old unraced TB to keep my retired guy company, since his pasturemate died a little over a month ago. He's BIG and handsome, and when she got him as a 3-year old he seemed talented for a baby. But he's never been in consistent work and a year or so ago he seemed to develop weird hind end issues. Not EPM or Lyme's, but just NQR and his back was chronically sore. So he hasn't been doing anything for months, and he was loaned to me to see if the unlimited turnout at my place would help him. If he gets more comfortable I'm supposed to try to get him going again. He's an absolute sweatheart, instantly hit it off with my horse, and could be a fun project for me if I can figure out what the problem is. After having him at my place since last Wednesday and watching him cruise around the field, I really think he may be an EPSM horse. He's got a huge front end, but his hind end is really underdeveloped in comparison. And when he's grazing he'll do this weird stringhalt-ish thing for a few steps after he's been standing in one spot for a while. When my blacksmith trimmed him last week, he was funky about picking up his back feet. My blacksmith said that when he held them, he felt a little like he had shivers. And his tail carriage is unusually high. Ambling up and down the big hill in our field all day already seems to be helping him, because he's walking much better than when he first came. But he's far from being right. So . . . I told everyone involved that I'd like to transition him to a low carb/high fat diet and see if that makes any difference. I've gotten the green light, since it can't hurt even if he doesn't have EPSM. His owner, however, would prefer not to pay for a biopsy and just wants to see if the change in feed helps him. I'm just wondering how long it might take until I see any improvement, if EPSM in fact is the problem. My vet says that it could be anywhere from 1-6 months. Edited by Delia, Oct 12 2009, 11:36 AM.
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| tarragon | Oct 12 2009, 12:44 PM Post #2 |
Is the meadow on fire?
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Delia, my mare was diagnosed about 2 years ago, and the diet made an enormous difference in her. She showed signs of improvement after just a couple of weeks, and after 2 months she looked like a different horse, and there was a huge improvement in her movement and rideability. There is another EPSM horse at my barn that was a little slower to improve, but he is on a lower fat diet than my mare. I think a lot of people don't incorporate enough fat into their EPSM horses' diet. After a lot of research, I opted to put my mare on beet pulp, alfalfa pellets and oil and build her a SmartPak rather than use one of the low starch/high fat feeds, and it has worked out very well for her. All of the commercial feeds I looked at were very expensive and then would still require additional vitamins and fat. |
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| Trialbyfire | Oct 12 2009, 12:57 PM Post #3 |
It'll be an adventure! We're going on an adventure!
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No advice here; I'm sure you've gone to the Rural Heritage site already? I had looked into EPSM when I had an aged rescue draft cross pony. I still think that she likely had EPSM but by the time I got her she was pretty crippled with arthritis so the diet didn't really help, although she really did enjoy the beet pulp! If you're right, however, it could make a huge difference and seems quite manageable. Such a young horse to have funky issues, I do hope it's EPSM and you can get it under control. Good luck! |
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| Delia | Oct 12 2009, 01:24 PM Post #4 |
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Is the meadow on fire?
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Thanks T -- Good to know that you saw improvement that quickly. Do you shoot for 1 lb. of fat/day with your mare, or more? What type of oil do you use? I'm planning on slowly putting this guy on Pennfield Energized + oil, which will get him up to 1 lb. of fat/day. I also mixed a cup of black oil sunflower seeds into his food yesterday, but he refused to touch it with those in there.  All of ours get soaked alfalfa pellets as a p.m. snack anyway, so I'll keep giving him that with some oil as well. The Energized has a lot of beet pulp + soybean oil and is the same price as "regular" feed. I'll still need to use oil, but not a whole lot, which is good b/c right now this horse isn't really loving even a quarter cup of vegetable oil in his food. I'm doubting that I'd be able to get him up to 1 cup of oil/meal. Fingers crossed that this is actually the problem. It would be nice if it was as simple a fix as changing his diet.  (but I'm not usually that lucky . . .)Edited to add that yes, I've checked out the Rural Heritage site. What a great site! It's what got me started down this road. He's a TB, which makes it more unusual, but he's exhibiting a mild form of all the symptoms she lists except tying up. I'm told that even when he was in work he never tied up, thank goodness, although he was never worked particularly hard. Edited by Delia, Oct 12 2009, 01:31 PM.
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| tarragon | Oct 12 2009, 03:21 PM Post #5 |
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Is the meadow on fire?
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Tarragon is right around 1500 pounds (I know, she's a tank!) so she gets 1 1/2 pounds of oil a day. She lives for food, so I was really surprised when she refused to eat when we first started adding oil to her food. We had to gradually increase the oil in her beet pulp (she wouldn't eat her alfalfa pellets if they were wet or oily, so she gets those separately) until it was one cup per feeding. She drew the line at 1 cup, so I make up the additional 1/2 pound per day with Cool Calories, a dry powdered fat. My mare never tied up either. She had muscle loss and weakness, gait abnormalities, was reluctant to move forward and had trouble holding up her hind legs for the farrier. My vet says that in his experience it is usually one or the other- horses that tend to tie up generally don't show the other symptoms much and the ones with the symptoms more like our horses generally don't tie up. One thing I have noticed is that the EPSM horses seem to be slower to build fitness and strength, and to lose it more quickly also. |
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| Delia | Oct 12 2009, 03:43 PM Post #6 |
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Is the meadow on fire?
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That's all good to know. I'd read about Cool Calories, but figured I'd try to get him to tolerate oil first. With the Energized feed, I only need to get him up to a 1/2 a cup of oil per feeding but if he won't do it I'll try the powdered fat. Hearing about Tarragon's symptoms makes me think even more that I'm on the right track, and I have to thank my farrier for it. I thought the horse was just being kind of a jerk when he was so difficult and cranky about holding up his hind legs. But when I started to get after him, my farrier told me not to b/c he thought the horse was having a hard time physically and mentioned shivers. He was just really patient and careful with him and eventually was able to get it done. Did I mention that I love my farrier?  So . . . we'll see.
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| jillintexas | Oct 13 2009, 03:14 PM Post #7 |
You're BANNED!
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Luna's dam had it; weak back, inability to hold hinds up, defensive of her hinds, difficulty cantering... This was seven years ago, and my vet had me try her on "the diet" which worked WONDERS for her within just a few months. Luna did well until last year when I started to notice some of the same symptoms, with the addition of "stringhalty" leg jerks while standing, particularly if you asked her to back up. he does not appear to have any muscle wasting at all and maintains "junk in the trunk" with very little (to NO) feed. I started her on "the diet" a few months ago and have seen some improvement, but not as much as I had hoped. At the beginning I was inadvertently shorting her fat intake. She also is a tank and weighs in at just shy of 1500 pounds. She will not eat the cool calories well, and isn't too fond of the oil, but we manage to get it down her. I recently started giving her Triple Crown Senior (she gets less than 2 1/2 pounds per day) to help balance the fat a bit and make it a tad more appealing to her. It's NSC is lower than 10% and it's beet pulp based, BUT it does have a tad of molasses. She also gets flax, and BOSS which help with the oil as well as adding some omegas to the mix. Good luck with your loaner boy!! FYI we never had Luna's dam tested, but my vet felt pretty confident that her positive response to the diet was enough to confirm the disease. She also had a very slow recovery to anesthesia once which seemed to validate the diagnosis even more. Luna has not been tested as the jury is out on whether or not "Irish Draughts" are "real" drafts and can be DNA tested. I do not want to do the muscle biopsy either. |
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| SnackPack | Oct 13 2009, 03:40 PM Post #8 |
It'll be an adventure! We're going on an adventure!
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Show loves his BOSS now, but wouldn't touch them when I started feeding them. I had to start with 1/4 cup and stirred them into his oat hay pellets. If I let them float to the top while it was soaking, he wouldn't eat. He now eats about 1 cup per feeding and couldn't care less if they are covering the top or mixed in.  Maybe try in smaller amounts? |
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| jillintexas | Oct 13 2009, 06:53 PM Post #9 |
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You're BANNED!
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Ditto what Snackie said. Try a smaller amount to start with, better anyway, because they can give them the trots if you feed too many too fast. 
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| tarragon | Oct 13 2009, 08:53 PM Post #10 |
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Is the meadow on fire?
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 Yep on what Snackie and jilli said- add in the oil bit by bit very slowly until you get it up to the right amount. I think it took almost a month to get Tara up to a cup in her food without her turning up her nose at it.
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| Delia | Oct 14 2009, 08:17 AM Post #11 |
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Is the meadow on fire?
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Yup, I'm going slow with the oil. I started him on Saturday with a 1/4 cup of oil in a.m. and p.m. feedings. He's eating it well now and never had loose manure, so I'll go up by another 1/4 cup tomorrow. I'm introducing the Pennfield Fibregized slowly as well, but he's much more enthusiastic about eating since I started adding that to the mix, and it absorbs oil much better than his old feed, so that's a bonus. He doesn't have any problem with the flax seed that I've been adding, but the BOSS is another matter altogether. The other day I put 3 seeds in his food (literally), mixed it in thoroughly, and he still absolutely would. not. eat. He'd sniff his food, nose around in it, and then walk away to look out his half-door. He'd come back every few minutes and do the same thing. Once I picked out the offending seeds, he nosed around in his food again and then plowed through it in record time. My own horse loves them, so that's fine. I know it's way to soon to tell, but I could swear that his hind end already looks a little better. It's probably just the unlimited turnout. |
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| RHowell | Oct 15 2009, 11:34 AM Post #12 |
You're BANNED!
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Hmm...I know nothing about EPSM--looks like I have some reading to go do. I've only heard about EPM and didn't realize the difference. Good luck Delia and keep us posted! |
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| Ann | Oct 18 2009, 06:21 AM Post #13 |
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We're on a bridge, Chaaaaaaaaarlie!
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I've worked with two EPSM horses. The first was an Appaloosa, and we replaced his grain with alfalfa pellets. He was on the small side, so he got 3/4 cup of oil twice a day (total 1.5 cups/day). For the most part, he ate it readily. This horse had developed a very sour attitude, and I noticed improvements in that department in the first week. I saw physical improvements after about 2 weeks. The second horse was more of a problem -- very very picky eater. He wouldn't eat alfalfa pellets, so we ended up settling on Ultium. At the time, it was higher in fat and lower in nonstructural carbohydrates than most other concentrate feeds. He received 2 cups of oil/day. After a very short time he wouldn't eat the Ultium with the oil, so we put it on his hay. To this day he still gets his oil on his hay and eats it well. We saw improvements within about a month. This horse would not eat canola oil but would eat corn oil. Another horse at the barn would not eat corn oil but loved canola oil. So, you will likely have to try a bunch of things before you hit on the right combination that your horse will eat. Good luck! |
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| Delia | Oct 19 2009, 08:19 AM Post #14 |
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Is the meadow on fire?
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Thanks all. He's doing great in terms of eating his new food, as we gradually change his diet. Unfortunately he had a mild gas colic yesterday, but it resolved quickly. My vet doesn't think it has anything to do with the diet change -- I'm doing it very gradually, and if anything, the new feed + oil should decrease the incidence of colic. My vet said she was responding to colic calls all day yesterday, most likely due to the big weather change we had. But in terms of movement, he already seems to be responding well to the increase in fat after just a week. He's much better about picking/holding up his hind feet, he's backing almost normally, his tail carriage is lower, and the stringhalt is much more occassional and less severe when he does do it -- he's not hiking his legs up nearly as high. And he's getting much more flexible with carrot stretches between his front legs He's still very funky when he walks down hill, but it's slightly better. So early signs are encouraging that I'm on the right track. |
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| Delia | Oct 22 2009, 07:55 AM Post #15 |
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Is the meadow on fire?
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Tarragon -- Did Tara drop a little weight when you were transitioning her to the high fat diet?? I've been transitioning Diego the loaner horse onto the new diet for a couple of weeks now, and I would have expected him to have started putting on a little weight by now. He wasn't super thin when he came, but I'd like to see him gain about 100 lbs. When I groomed him last night, however, I thought he actually has lost a little weight in the past week. The BO thinks so too. Not a lot, but I definitely see/feel ribs that I didn't see last week. I've read that EPSM horses tend not to blimp up on all the fat, but I wasn't expecting weight loss. (He just has his teeth done and a fecal test was negative for worms, so those aren't issues for him.) No big deal for me to slowly increase the amount of feed he's getting, but I'm just curious if this is something Tara experienced. |
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