Need advice - disheartend

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Need advice - disheartend; My mare is a mess
Topic Started: Apr 17 2009, 03:36 PM (492 Views)
EquineLVR	Apr 17 2009, 03:36 PM Post #1
Weanling Posts: 16 Group: Members Member #1,439 Joined: August 16, 2007	I have a almost 6 yr old Dutch warmblood by Emilion and she has always been pretty forward and up under saddle. So my current trainer suggested we send her off to a very reputable BNT. So fast foward 10 months... She comes home from BNT - he has been jumping around 3ft courses at shows but schools around 3ft and once a week a couple 3 '6 oxers... This BNT LOVES he. Raves about her saying she is a very quality horse with a huge jump. So she comes homes April 2nd.. me and my trainer watch BNT ride horse around at my barn and she is jumping huge, leaving out strides, nervous, tense.. and does not seem to be enjoying her job. So next day my trainer gets on - trots to a very small cross rail and she starts to back off like she doesnt want to go - trainer makes her go and she jumps with all four feet off the ground and OVER the standards...my trainer says she is done with her - thinks she is an unwilling peice of crap...and NOT brave. Total opposite opinion of BNT. I dont know what to think... Somewhere inside I think either she is not mature enough, something is bothering her or maybe she just is an ass. She is so sweet on the ground.. loves attention.. goes nuts when I come to the barn... pushing her head into my chest for hugs.. you can even float her teeth with no meds... But get on her and she is a nightmare.. hot, tense, jumps really inverted..spooky, super strong and pulling..etc.. Any one have any ideas or do I just throw in the towel? Also BNT said he had another just like her and by the time she was eight a 16 yr old girl bought her and rides her in the junior jumpers.. Any advice would really be appreciated..



2Dogs	Apr 17 2009, 05:51 PM Post #2
We're on a bridge, Chaaaaaaaaarlie! Posts: 268 Group: Members Member #4,363 Joined: June 2, 2008	hmm, get rid of BNT??? something does not compute here! BNT "raves' but horse is frightened, not moving off the leg, tense, etc?? I may be misinformed but based on what you posted, BNT is an arse! I can't tell from what you have posted if you really have a horse problem or a trainer (ie BNT) problem.



Ride'emVA	Apr 18 2009, 06:41 AM Post #3
Magical Leopluridon Posts: 867 Group: Members Member #683 Joined: January 31, 2007	Why did your current trainer want you to send her off in the first place? Were there problems before the mare went away, or ??? Is that what you mean by "forward and up" (which BTW I read as a good thing)? If you're saying she needed to calm down and that's why you sent her away, then I would suggest bringing her back to basics and putting some more good flatwork into her for the next 6-12 months...this mare's training has been rushed and she's possibly been bullied, and the biggest thing you should take her over in the near future is a pole on the ground. When she can do that nicely, and trot/canter through cavaletti without spazzing, you're on the right track. A really good exercise (when she's ready) is 4 poles on the ground in a + shaper (but not touching). Trot in a circle over them, getting the same number of strides in between. Then do it at the canter. Unfortunately, I can't remember the exact measurements for where each pole is placed...I'll try to find it later on.



Corey94	Apr 18 2009, 12:58 PM Post #4
Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. Posts: 417 Group: Members Member #428 Joined: January 18, 2007	I'm definately not an expert, but what about her diet? or her hormones? That's the first thing I thought of when I read your post. Don't lose hope; sometimes it's all I've got anymore!!



MissBri	Apr 19 2009, 04:21 AM Post #5
Cead Mile Failte ! ! SLAINTE! Posts: 4,013 Group: Members Member #973 Joined: April 20, 2007	I agree with Ride'Em - sounds like your mare has been rushed and possibly bullied. I would restart her focusing on flat work and getting her to relax more undersaddle. I probably wouldn't jump her at all this season - or at least not until she's consistently happy, calm, responsive, and relaxed doing all sorts of flatwork, cavalettis, etc. I would also expose her to a wider variety of experiences - go for a trail ride, take her to a show but do not enter any classes (except maybe an in-hand or flat class). That's my advice - I also agree that I would be a bit suspect of the BNT methods/tactics.



SnackPack	Apr 20 2009, 11:52 AM Post #6
It'll be an adventure! We're going on an adventure! Posts: 2,126 Group: Members Member #238 Joined: January 8, 2007	Based on your post, I get the following information: Current trainer doesn't like the mare. BNT likes her A LOT but is probably rushing her. You feel like she is too up and forward which makes you uncomfortable. You've got to find a training program that works for the horse...and it doesn't sound like it is with either of the current trainers. You need someone that likes the horse but is willing to go back to basics...for as long as it takes. Forward is a good thing in a horse as long as you can control it. If you can't control it, do the basics (flatwork, cavaletti, etc) until you can control it.



SidesaddleRider	Apr 20 2009, 02:19 PM Post #7
Thomas H. Cruise! Posts: 700 Group: Members Member #441 Joined: January 18, 2007	It sounds like you need a new trainer, and your mare needs to learn that being ridden isn't terrible. I would recommend getting her OUT of the ring and just trail riding her for 4-6 weeks, so she can learn that life isn't so bad when u/s. I have a (very exp'd/well-trained) mare that was well on her way to being ruined due to a bad rider/trainer mix. She immediately tensed up when you got on her, jumped as you described your mare, was ring sour, brain fried, etc. I got her at the beginning of June, and just hacked her out for 6 weeks, then started her back with light flat work in the ring, then moved up to trotting poles and tiny fences until she learned to relax. She was back showing (and placing well!) at a show on Labor Day the same year, and then foxhunted all season. She is now a very happy horse.



TortoiseT	Apr 21 2009, 11:39 AM Post #8
Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. Posts: 338 Group: Members Member #463 Joined: January 18, 2007	since the horse is just coming 6, you might still have time to "save" her. Get the horse out of the ring for as long as possible. She might be ring sour. Hack her in the fields, trail ride her...only bring her into the ring occasionally. Take your time as much as possible. If you have to do this until she's 8...then so be it (if money isn't a factor?) So basically I guess I'm agreeing with SSR?



Delia	Apr 21 2009, 11:43 AM Post #9
Is the meadow on fire? Posts: 1,502 Group: Members Member #681 Joined: January 31, 2007	A few more questions before I think we can weigh in on which trainer seems to have the right idea about your mare, although at first blush they seem to represent the extremes and your mare probably isn't either of those things. On the one hand, as far as the BNT saying that he's in love with her, the cynical side of me thinks he could be blowing smoke up your bum because he needs to justify what he's been doing with her for almost a year. Keeping her with him for training and showing couldn't have been cheap. On the other hand, your trainer's proclamation that she's done with the mare that she's a piece o' crap seems unreasonable unless there's more history that we don't know. So . . . here are my questions: How long have you had her? How long have you been with your current trainer? How much was she jumping/showing before you sent her to the BNT? Before you sent her off, was she just forward/tense, or did she also have a bit of a stop or spook to her? How did she do at the shows that the BNT took her to? Did you see her go at all during the 10 months she was away? When the BNT rode her for you when she came home, was he like -- "Look how great she's going!" Or was he like,"Dear God, she's being a nervous freak today and jumping like an antelope!" In a perfect world, what are your goals for her/you? Did you bring her home now b/c the BNT said that she was ready for you to take over, or did you just want her back?



EquineLVR	Apr 21 2009, 02:43 PM Post #10
Weanling Posts: 16 Group: Members Member #1,439 Joined: August 16, 2007	We sent her off because she was super tense all the time and strong and felt like she could explode at any moment and she is a VERY big girl so did not want to take a major head plant off of her. Lots of spook and very inconsistent.. one day was great and the next was like starting over. I have had her since she was 2 and she was broke by a very good friend and very good trainer of mine. Not the two I have talked about in the original post. I have ridden with my current trainer for 15 years. My mare was NOT jumping at all before we sent her up to the BNT. The day we brough her home he definetly said she was not the same as at home and that she was nervous there.. the BNT did say he thought she was ready to be able to come back and work in the program I am currently in. I have video of her at the shows and being working and she seems just as tense there its just that he is a srong rider and just moves her through it. She also is not jumping as well as she used to - she is not using her back and is very inverted. Which I think makes her even more tense. Does this info help?



Delia	Apr 21 2009, 04:28 PM Post #11
Is the meadow on fire? Posts: 1,502 Group: Members Member #681 Joined: January 31, 2007	Yes, that helps alot. On the physical side of things, I definitely think it's worth having a vet do a very thorough exam on her. Some horses get nervous, strong and/or spooky when they have chronic pain and/or a vision issue. A green horse at my old barn was a lot like your girl sounds, and it turned out that he had kissing spine. He was never lame and never stopped at the jumps, but went around like a spooky freight train. And the more work he got, the worse he jumped. Barring anything physical, I agree with everyone else that the BNT rushed her, and put the fear of God into her. And I think you've gotten good suggestions as to needing to go back to square one with her. Before you sent her off, was she less tense and spooky if you kept her brain really engaged when she was being ridden? If jumping is just not for her, does she have the movement to change careers and be a dressage horse if she could get more relaxed? Sorry I'm not more helpful.



Smiles	Apr 23 2009, 08:44 AM Post #12
Off visiting Candy Cave, be right back. Posts: 1,480 Group: Members Member #356 Joined: January 12, 2007	Do get the mare check out by a vet first before spending more money on training. With that said maybe this mare doesn't want to be a "jumping horse"... Perhaps the horse is being pigeon holed into a discipline thats not right for her? Hot and tense horse does not make for a good hunter and the more your try I think the worse she may get. Maybe something to think about before heading down that road.



grayfox	Apr 23 2009, 07:10 PM Post #13
Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. Posts: 367 Group: Members Member #453 Joined: January 18, 2007	I would find a well respected young horse trainer and send her there but make sure to watch the training. It seems like maybe you just haven't found the correct trainer for her. SHe sounds like a quality horse that just having some problems.



Onelanerode	May 1 2009, 10:15 AM Post #14
Thomas H. Cruise! Posts: 633 Group: Members Member #130 Joined: January 7, 2007	Yes, get a good vet to look her over, and make sure her feet are trimmed and shod properly too. If that all checks out OK, make sure her diet is providing everything she needs (vitamins, minerals, calories) and nothing she doesn't (high NSCs, sugar, etc.). Then just play this summer. Hack her out, trailer her off the farm and go on trail rides, etc. Whatever you feel safe doing with her that isn't in a ring. She does sound like she's some combination of fried/overwhelmed/sore/scared. She may also be a bit like my mare, who is not terribly mature for her age. My mare is very willing, but she gets frazzled when she doesn't understand what you want and will try really hard to figure it out. I think in many ways my mare is going to be a late bloomer; perhaps yours may be as well? I do think I'd look hard at finding a trainer whose training/teaching style meshes with this mare's personality and ability and your goals. It just doesn't sound to me like either trainer is right for her.



Valentina_32926	May 4 2009, 01:40 PM Post #15
Weanling Posts: 7 Group: Members Member #2,494 Joined: January 3, 2008	When working with a nervous horse a full physical. including teeth, saddle fit, etc. should have been accomplished before training started. Since that didn't happen do it now. Have vet look at her magnesium levels - if she's at the the low end of normal or below normal limits add magnesium to her diet. Palpate her back and see if she's sore. If so, get chiro to adjsut her and find a saddle to fit her. The re-start her on the basics - get a GOOD dressage trainer who specializes in young horses and focuses on relaxation. Zero jumping until she can move at W/T/C and remain relaxed. Work with the dressage trainer to learn how to get - and here's the HARD part - KEEP - the horse relaxed in her work. Then you'll have the tools to use when she gets upset during jumping. Once you have that down, re-start her as if she'd never jumped - ground poles and cavaletti's - the size she can step over. When she does that without any tenseness - indicated by signs such as rushing, head in air, hollow back - then start her on baby jumps - 2'3" no higher. BNTs tend to rush when they have a talented youngster and that can fry the baby's brain. Sounds like what happened to her so you have to re-start her. And never just leave a horse with a trainer - even a BNT. Periodically go visit her and ride her - if you're getting your money's worth you should be able to feel a difference. Sorry - but had you done that last time the horse would not have been at BNTs farm longer than 1 month - now it'll take longer to re-gain her trust (if you can). Think SLOW - be prepared to be doing flat work for at least 1 year before even thinking of jumping or you'll be perpetuating the problem she's never lost. Good luck - she's worth it!



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