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| CDE...blinders or no?? | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 21 2009, 10:57 AM (166 Views) | |
| jillintexas | Jan 21 2009, 10:57 AM Post #1 |
You're BANNED!
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I have a good friend who is about to embark on drive training. We have a local lady who has done quite a bit of driving (Linda Courtney). She's semi-retired now, but still takes on a few folks here and there. Anyway, where was I> Ah yes, a friend has been researching and thinking that this would be a great new undertaking for her lovely boy, and she stumbled upon various sites about starting horses in harness. Some advocate blinders (blinkers??) and some don't. Can you explain or elaborate a bit on your preferences? Lost Farmer and Thomas 1 (or anyone else!!) you're welcome to chime in. THanks!! |
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| CDE Driver | Jan 24 2009, 07:53 AM Post #2 |
Off visiting Candy Cave, be right back.
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Hi Jaci, sorry I missed this. There are really two camps, although the "open bridle" camp is smaller.  I am a strong advocate of a closed bridle (one with blinkers). The biggest reasons are focus. I want my horse to focus on me. I will get a hold of Thomas and have him chime in here. He can bring a much greater depth of experience to the discussion. As an aside.... there is a driver in the Houston area (I think) named Bill Peacock. He was on our singles team that went to Poland for the World Championships in 2008. He has a horse for sale that a client of mine is getting vetted. If all goes well it is my hope that she flys me down there to look at him. She is having back problems at the moment and can't make the trip.... so keep your fingers crossed. I do know of Linda Courtney, she has a good reputation. |
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| horsegent | Jan 24 2009, 10:40 AM Post #3 |
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Weanling
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Hi, CDE sent me an email to tell me to come to read this posting. I've not been on the forum for a couple of months! So Happy New Year to one and all. I prefer a driving horse to focus on what is happening in front and when you commence driving it can be problematic not having blinkers. And I'd never drive one without. Also dependent on what you intend to do, you may find you have to wear get him in blinkers because of rules. Personally though I would not show or drive a horse in an open bridle, even if it were allowed. I've heard of the occasional (rare) horse who for one reason or another goes better in an open bridle. But IME its more a case that sometimes people just get warm and fuzzy about letting the horse see everything and the results can be disastrous. I've known folks who went "open" bridle to drive. All claimed to be experienced drivers and with solid driving horses. It worked for a while. In every instance, horse later saw something, reacted, ended up causing a wreck. Some were modest wrecks, others quite horrific. I don't know any of the wrecked horses who were able to be SAFELY driven again, even in blinkers. Blinkers shut down the big screen of visibility, reduce the reaction from the horse to uncontrollable features in the environment and to unconscious body signals you may give him. The horse is designed to notice these detail things, his survival depends on it, so blinkers close down the vision area allowed. Then consider that a well-trained driving horse understands and responds appropriately to whip cues. The blinkers prevent the horse from seeing the driving whip and anticipating the whip cue. This is important for any driving horse but especially so for multiples. You don't want to be aiming a whip cue at one horse and having the other(s) see it coming and react when they're not the intended target of the cue. Riding and driving are very different disciplines. Hooking a wheeled contraption to a horse or horses is a far riskier endeavor than climbing on a horse's back, both for the driver and passengers and for all the innocent bystanders and their property who stand in harm's way when there's a runaway horse and carriage. Blinkers (blinders) have been used for hundreds of years and are used by the most experience and skilled drivers. You need to think there must be valid reasons. Then when it comes to bridles with blinkers you get different sorts. The blinkers are best with a blinker strap that encases a metal structure so you can ensure you can bend the blinker so its the correct distance from the eye. Edited by horsegent, Jan 24 2009, 10:43 AM.
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| jillintexas | Jan 24 2009, 11:45 AM Post #4 |
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You're BANNED!
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Thomas 1 is that you???  Thanks for the input, both of you. I know she has been reading around (and on TOB) and had run into the two "schools" of thought. I will make sure she sees this thread. She is working with Linda, so I'm sure there will be good input there. I think they're measuring him for a harness in a week or so.  CDE, I hope it all goes well with the horse for your friend. Where is Mr. Peacock located? If you fly in and have time, I could meet you for lunch? Edited by jillintexas, Jan 24 2009, 11:49 AM.
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| CDE Driver | Jan 24 2009, 11:47 AM Post #5 |
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Off visiting Candy Cave, be right back.
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Thank you Thomas, I knew we could depend on a most erudite response from you. Your expertise and experience are much appreciated. |
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| goodhors | Jan 24 2009, 07:23 PM Post #6 |
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Schooling
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I don't think Horsegent is Thomas, not the same style. I would agree with Horsegent's remarks on the reasons for blinkers. In fact I thought he had lifted one of my posts from the past. We used almost exactly the same wording about the folks who went blinkerless. My friends also did OK for a while, then wrecked badly when the horse "saw too much" and ran-away to wreck. Very nasty wrecks, though the people and horses were both very experienced befor blinker removal. I would not agree with wired blinker stays. We don't care for them anymore. Just always seem to be in the wrong position for our horses. We train all our future Driving horses open. They long-line, drag tires, travois, do the first cart hitching, with no blinkers. They see and KNOW what it going on during all the training, are NOT afraid of that stuff. You can alternate between open and blinker bridles to get equine acclimated to the different vision during training. Blinkers are not a surprise then. After that first cart hitching, our animals go in blinkers each outing. No more open bridles when hitched. As already stated, the horse will read your body and body language. Horse seeing certain moves, will endeavor to "help" you and anticipate what is to come. Driving folks can't have that EVER! Horse MUST wait for direction, people getting in, being seated, standing forever, though whip may be moving about. Driving is not as easy as riding, horse must be much better trained, DEPENDABLE when given directions, EVERY TIME. Your life can depend upon it. There are some traditionally acceptable hitched horse that use open bridles. These wouldl be usually found in agricultral jobs. Horses working closely with their people, maybe independently, with times where the horses are allowed to make choices. I am not recommending this method, but have seen it in use. Feeding cattle hay in winter, pulling logs out of the woods, various small jobs around the farm. Routine in their methods, same EVERY TIME, is a strong training aid with voice aids to direct the animal. I did that "kindly" thing of no blinkers on bridle one drive, many years ago. We wrecked, though pony was very experienced, solid, had just about finished a 15 mile drive. She saw and reacted, there was no stopping her with the reins. I did manage to run her into a tree, not a great way to stop though. I don't recommend open bridles for driving horses. Many horses can manage a very open set of blinkers with more vision. Blinkers are behind the eyes, sticking straight outward. Just closes off the view of carriage and people on it. Other horses like just having the view ahead, less to worry about. Do use a cavesson to keep bridle sides close to the head. No cavesson, or noseband only, lets the cheeks gap open when reins are used. Horse can peek behind, sees things you may now want him seeing. Edited by goodhors, Jan 24 2009, 07:26 PM.
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| horsegent | Jan 25 2009, 03:47 AM Post #7 |
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Weanling
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Wrong  Like I said, I turned up here to answer and because CDE emailed me. She emailed carriage@freeuk.com and look what she got 
Wrong.....  Must be my complex and multi-faceted"interesting" personality. Indeed I cut and pasted my reply from a posted reply I'd done on the same question on COTH and some time ago. (checks in mirror) Yes definitely me and definitely my style
The whole point of wired blinker stays is that you can adjust them so they're in the right position. May be you mean something different to what I mean????? I always train driving horses in their driving harness. I never drag heavy static stuff or tyres with them. I've never had a horse yet be surprised by blinkers. It seems totally and utterly irrational to me to start to train a driving horse without blinkers if it's ultimately going to be in harness and bridle with blinkers. (Now you'll know I'm definitely Tom )There are indeed. Those horses are normally so familiar with their jobs and so hard working that they're never going to dingbat about much. Indeed they'd be always looking to have a rest from their work. They're often doing agricultural or hauling jobs where they're being led by their bridle and need to be aware of where their handler is because he's going to be right next to him (just about where his great big clunky heavy feet might land if he takes a wrong step!). I presumed however when I answered that the poster was learning to drive a light harness horse and it was training a light harness horse that they wanted to know about. So not the likes of a horse on a treadmill for turning the wheels on an ancient agricultural machine in a restricted farm yard. I'm glad you eventually came in with this because till this sentence it was sounding like you were almost suggesting it might be a viable or recommended option. p.s. Posted photo is evidence I am the infamous "Thomas" and it shows blinkers with wire stays. The horses are my own: Gilbert and Sullivan. Full brothers. Purpose bred to be a driving pair. Welsh Section D x connemara just short of 16 hands.
Edited by horsegent, Jan 25 2009, 06:10 AM.
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| goodhors | Jan 25 2009, 02:32 PM Post #8 |
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Schooling
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Well you fooled me Thomas! Your alter ego is way tamed down, just had a different cadence than what I am used to. I thought your name on here was also Thomas, since that is what I have seen on all your other posts to various lists. Reusing your post, is why it looked so familiar! I was picturing the typical Amish harness with buggy blinkers. Wires are not usually how I want the blinkers to fit on horse. Our harnesses have no wires in the blinker stay straps. The pony was way before I got into more educated driving. I think I had been reading some old books with horses using open bridle to drive. How "mean" folks were to cover a horse's eyes. We wrecked pretty good, which was a big lesson for me. Small as she was, 49 inches, I could not stop her, barely guided her with reins as she ran for home. The barely part got her into the tree, which did stop us. NOT a good way to halt! We hitched her one time after, got another run after a nice drive, also stopped with a tree! That one was just ornery acting, no excuse for spooking, had the blinders on, out in the middle of two open fields. Since driving was not a big deal for me then, I didn't work thru her problems to get her back driving. Probably would have made things worse trying, with my lack of driving knowledge to fix her, until someone got terribly damaged on one of the runaways. We did driving things the rather crude, farmer way that I knew then. She rode well, just continued using her for riding. Live and learn, I would have much more knowledge to use on her now. Probably could get her driving well again, now. The other driving folks I know who tried open bridles, had similar experiences. Worse wrecks though. Carriages smashed, horses hurt, people hurt badly. Some gave up driving after. Too scary. Nice to see you over here! |
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| jillintexas | Jan 25 2009, 02:46 PM Post #9 |
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You're BANNED!
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It's been SO long since Thomas has posted over here, he probably forgot his user name and password *cough cough* Thanks again for all the information. It's been very interesting. I would like to drive the crazy mare someday, but clearly we have a few things to learn before then. It's been fun watching my friend and drilling her after she has lessons. One thing...is it "crupper" pronounced like it's spelled or do you pronounce it "crouper"?? Seems to be a tomato toMAHto thing
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| MissBri | Jan 26 2009, 04:32 AM Post #10 |
Cead Mile Failte ! ! SLAINTE!
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Thomas - what a handsome pair of fellows you have there! Jilli, I have always pronounced it Crupper - like cup with an R |
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| horsegent | Jan 26 2009, 05:32 AM Post #11 |
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Weanling
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Crupper is is pronounced exactly how it looks. Think of supper and it rhymes with that. I was going to say "cuppa" as in cuppa tea then I thought that's probably a little "English" for you guys Folks who are across other BB's will know I don't post anonymously if it's somewhere I'm likely to be offering advice and post opinion and that I frequently say I actually don't like that tendency. I always think you should nail your flag to the mast and own what you say. I think though that when I first joined here the username Thomas was taken so I took this which is actually a one I've used elsewhere too and you're right I do keep forgetting it! Thank goodness for cookies and saving usernames ! The older I get the more I need that sort of reminder! Here's what I think was my first posting - posts 37 and 45. So not exactly hiding under anonymity! http://s8.zetaboards.com/The_Outside_Course/topic/216490/3/ I do always give a brief profile detail though even if I'm disguised with an "alter" and I think I posted first off by way of an introduction. I also say who I am on my signature line....... which is probably the biggest clue! Edited by horsegent, Jan 26 2009, 05:42 AM.
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| jillintexas | Jan 26 2009, 06:30 AM Post #12 |
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You're BANNED!
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I had always pronounced it "Crupper" (just like it is spelled) too, but I've never driven anything either, other than a vehicle. I knew it was you thomas. Never occurred to me to look at your sig line! Old AND blonde;.a double whammy combo loco!
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| MissBri | Jan 28 2009, 05:12 PM Post #13 |
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Cead Mile Failte ! ! SLAINTE!
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