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Horse buying - questions to ask seller; For a friend
Topic Started: Sep 21 2007, 01:40 PM (416 Views)
Trialbyfire
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A good friend of mine has a 12 year old daughter who has been taking western pleasure lessons for several months now at a small barn; not exactly "backyard" by definition but pretty darn small.

The girl has essentially convinced my friend on the idea that she should have a horse of her own at this barn; my friend and her husband have basically agreed. They know nothing of horses at all, but are hoping to find something that will become their daughter's passion as she enters those difficult teenaged years.... :psycho:

I have many concerns.....barn owner/trainer has several horses that she has bred and "trained" [not sure to what extent], and is willing to sell these folks; she will let daughter work off some of the board with barn chores. Could be a dream come true or a nightmare.......and I've said as much to my friend.

So, they are looking at horses now. I'm not going to try to change her mind [think they are past the point of no return] but instead am trying to come up with a good list the things she needs to "nail down" with regard to the horse and also the boarding situation.

Since my horses were all sort of rescue cases, I never went about a "proper" purchase - hence needing your advice!

I have told her she should consider a PPE no matter what the price of the horse; not necessarily even as a way to back out of the deal but to prepare for any physical issues the horse may have after they buy it. She agrees this is a good idea....not sure how the BO will take this. [Do most PPEs include x-rays? Evaluation of the vaccination records or anything like that - or do you simply trust seller that they are up to date?]

What else should she do before laying down money for a horse? -- how many times should they "try" the horse; any other contractual considerations they should consider? I am assuming a purchase agreement would actually be written but not sure about that (although friend is an attorney, so she'll probably insist.)

As far as the board situation - I have advised her to get the "discount for barn chores" specifically enumerated as I have known several boarders who did this and felt they were taken advantage of - essentially being expected to be at the barn all the time (before school, after school, weekends). I'm sure that works both ways too....probably many BOs who regret doing this as well.

She sent me pics of one of the horses today but I have no details (age, height, etc.) so it's not much use. Hopefully I can at least go out and check out the boarding facility before they finalize the deal....she asked if I would do this for her.

I would be grateful for any advice you can provide.....have a not-so-great feeling about the whole thing but am not close enough to the situation to step in. :(
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vxf111
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I started off by writing a list, in ranking order of characteristics, in order of most important to least important (obviously this list will vary per person)

Requirements (will not buy horse that does not meet these)

1. Sound- must pass a vet and have no chronic injuries or other issues.

2. Quiet temperament/easygoing/not-spooky/forgiving (would be rated 1,2,or 3 out of 10)

3. Correct conformation

4. No stable vices (cribbing, weaving, wind sucking, stall walking, wood chewing, etc.)

5. 10 mover, good hack, daisy cutter movement

6. 16.0 hands or larger with a relatively round barrel, prefer 16.0/16.1 range

7. Talented Jumper, does not need to be world-beater but needs to be safe and scopey enough to do 3’0 with ease.

8. Age 3 years-10 years. Prefer 4-8 year range.

Strong Preferences (would buy a horse that does not have these attributes, but prefer that it does)

9. Gender: Prefer gelding, would accept mare

10. Color: First choice is black, second is bay, third is chestnut. Gray is acceptable but not preferred. Dilute colors unacceptable.

11. Nice head/cute face

12. Markings: Prefer chrome on face (especially blaze) but not white legs, if white legs marking should be even. Pinto coloring acceptable, provided it is minimal/English style.

13. Breed: APHA, AQHA, Thoroughbred, warmblood all equal preferences. Registration a plus, but not necessary. No draft cross, no appaloosa.

14. Experience: Prefer show experience off property, second choice is correct training. Must be started. Green is okay but must be quiet and green

15. Prefer to buy with a trial period. Prefer to try horse in a ring with fences. Must at least be able to ride horse and see horse ridden by pro/other rider.

Price

Willing to pay $XXX for a horse that meets all the requirements but has little experience. Willing to pay up to $YYY for a horse that has all the listed attributes and is a proven show winner with lots of experience and a winning jump. Willing to pay between $XXXand $YYY for a horse that meets all the requirements but has less experience and/or an average jump.

---

And then I stuck by the list! I called and talked through the horse with sellers in order of the list. If it didn't have any of the requirements. Boom. I politely ended that call and that was that. If it met the requirements, it went on a list. After I collected a decent number of horses in a georgraphic area, I called and set up appointments.

And once I got there, I again went through the list.

I found this TREMENDOUSLY helpful.

I also would encourage the new buyers to set up a written budget. Call vets and find out what those expenses are likely to be like. Contact the farrier and get that price. Not only does it make for an effective budget, but it helps get the new owners in contact with the professionals they're going to be relying upon.
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vxf111
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Everything should be in writing (sales agreement, board-for-work agreement) etc.

I would do a very thorough PPE. It's worth the money. Films and all. What if 3 months down the line they realize this is a big mistake and have to see the horse? They'll be glad they did a thorough vetting.
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Wayside
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I completely agree about having everything in writing, and a thorough PPE, though I am of the opinion that depending on the child's skill level, an older horse with some minor maintenance issues isn't necessarily a bad idea, as long as you have a good idea what they are, and what it will cost to maintain them, and what your limits are.

Ask if the seller is willing to release the horse's veterinary records. Some of them are, and a veterinary history combined with a thorough PPE is, imo, better than either one alone.

Find out what the child's goals are, and a bit about her personality when riding. Is she bold? Timid? Scared of heights? Does she dream of showing WP, something else, or does she really want to be able to hit the trail, or is she content just to mosey around the arena. That info might help you decide what some of your priorities are, and what sort of questions to ask.

If something's really important to you, don't take the seller at their word, ask to see the horse do it, whether it's navigating the obstacles in a trail class, jumping, standing tied, being clipped, loading on a trailer, and so on.

If they're considering a purchase from her riding instructor, perhaps the instructor would let the child take some lessons on the horse the BO is suggesting, or even lease a horse, before committing.
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Trialbyfire
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Some great ideas here! Thanks so much!

vxf - I love your list! I look forward to the day when I actually set forth to buy a horse like this....although I seem to have a soft spot for the hard cases.....probably something I'll regret in the future! I think my friend is in a tough spot - my guess is they are being shown horses A, B & C and being asked to choose. <_< But I still think a list is a good idea -- have the child write up their "Dream Horse" list and see how close any of them come to that ideal. At least they will know if they are "giving in" to the BO and maybe they will realize at some point that it's *her* best interests not theirs that are obvious. (Which is my real concern -- that BO will sell the kid a half-trained horse with the promise that she will continue to provide training....paid for by the sale & board of the horse.....but meanwhile the kid won't be able to ride it because it's insane/green/unsound, all of the above, etc.)

Wayside - I agree with you about leasing before buying. That's my big "plug" for my friend. Why not? The BO *should* have absolutely nothing to lose by doing that....so I'm going ot push that idea.

A few more questions:

Is it typical for a seller to release the vet records? Just curious...personally I'd want to see them. I keep all my records in a binder so not only does it have the actual vet appointments and what was done, but I also record when I deworm, farrier appts, etc. Things I think are important.....

Also, would you specifically choose a vet other than the seller's vet for the PPE? It would seem like a good idea....although on the other hand having their own vet say in writing the horse is sound....if they knew otherwise it would seem many vets would not put in writing anything that contradicts their own vet records.....

Thanks for the ideas! I am cringing inwardly everytime I think of this situation....I just hope it works out!
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Fish Cheeks
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Sounds like a situation that could potentially go very wrong - good for you for keeping an eye out for your friend and her daughter.

Perhaps you could help them with their list? If I used vfx's list, we wouldn't have Mr. Fishy's new horse, as he has 3 of her 8 must-haves as strikes against him! But we were probably shopping for different things so what is ideal for one person is not ideal for another.

If it is her first horse and she's a beginner, I say temperament is at the top of the list - even before soundness. Of course everyone wants a sound horse, but an older horse with maintenance issues can be the perfect teacher horse for a young child just getting started.

I have not found it typical for a seller to release records. I have a friend who is looking, seller agreed to release records, vet declined to discuss horse with buyer which was a big red flag that there's probably something there that would be a deal-breaker.

Most certainly, she should NOT use current seller's vet - she needs a third party, impartial vet who works on the buyer's behalf.

I second the idea of a "lease-to-buy" situation. If the trainer wants to sell her a horse, then this should be an easy situation. If not, then I wouldn't consider a horse from that trainer, and would be dubious of working with her in the future anyways.

Xrays, for sure.

My biggest piece of advice, which I learned the hard way, is to trust (assuming it has not been drugged, which is another story entirely) that what the horse shows you during the trial is how the horse is. My first horse bucked with me during a trial ride...I attributed it to our being cut-off in the arena. Nope, he was a chronic bucker and dumped me on my head more times than I can count. My second horse tended to suck back from my leg a bit...a tendency that continued while I owned him and was what he'd rever to when scared. Third horse had crappy transitions and seemed unbalanced, I thought he was green and would improve...we still struggle with the same things. And so on and so on...they are who they are and she should decide if she can live with whatever that might be, assuming that she won't improve it. If she can, it is icing on the cake but she shouldn't have that expectation (especially if it is a first horse).

No horse is perfect, they all have their flaws. I think finding the "right" horse is finding the combination of the things you want, while being willing to accept the horse for who he is.

You are a good friend - good luck!
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Wayside
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I don't know how typical it is to release records, but both the previous owner of my mare and the previous owner of my mother's horse were willing to do so. The owner of the horse being offered called their vet and gave them permission to speak with us, and they did. Even if it's not the norm, it's certainly something that some people and vets are willing to do. And that information can be very valuable. IMO, it's worth asking.

In some instances even if their vet feels uncomfortable speaking to you directly, they may be willing to release strictly factual information to your vet, so that your vet can interpret for you.
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vxf111
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Oh, I absolutely did not mean to imply that what I was shopping for was what SHE should be shopping for. My first horse ALSO would have been missing important must-haves. I just posted that as a starting point. MAKING the list and THINKING about what I needed/wanted etc. was what made the list useful. They should sit down and think about what THEY need/want.
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MissBri
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TrialbyFire

Instead of buying a horse right now - convince your friends to lease a horse for a year first. Let them know that owning a horse is a long term commitment of time, money, and emotions. What happens when the horse pulls up lame and needs daily dredgery care without the 'fun' of riding?

I STRONGLY advise EVERY first time buyer this. People honestly think they know what they are getting into, but few rarely do. Most also buy the wrong type of horse for their situation.

Leasing has many benefits of owning without the long term commitment...

1. allows the daughter to see how much of her time is required when actually 'owning' a horse (especially when the weather is crappy or she's not feeling well)
2. allows the parents to experience the money commitment of 'owning' a horse - most are quite shocked how much money gets dribbled away)
3. gives the daughter the chance to identify what she really wants in a horse (what she thinks she wants now may be very different in six months)
4. Gives the parents and daughter an 'out' if the horse is not a good fit or the time/money/emotional commitment is just too much
5. kind of a test to see if the daughter 'REALLY' wants a horse of her own - if she commits to a years lease and follows through, then look for a horse to buy

Many many parents and 'would be' horse owners have come back to thank me over and over again for that piece of advice. Often I had to almost ram it down their throats...
A bit more than half of the daughters lost interest in horse care at about 15-16 yo - most still liked to ride, and thought it cool to own a horse, but didn't 'embrace' the responsibility required. So at the end of the lease, most went back to lessons then leased a horse during the summer/show season.

One woman loves leasing and is on her 3rd horse in six years. She leases for two years at a time , with a four month 'trial' period to be sure the two work well together. She's now preparing to go advanced next year on her newest lease. She really likes this newest boy and is now thinking of maybe purchasing.

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Trialbyfire
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Thanks everyone! :one:

Well....the update is that they bought the horse. So I think I was brought into the discussion at the 11th hour, to say the least. They did not have a PPE but did get a written 100% money back soundness & health agreement. The vet is coming soon and the seller and new owner will be present to ask as many questions as they want. It sounds like the seller really is trying to be on the up and up.

I guess they spent all weekend with the horse and even my friend rode it (she's only trail ridden a few times at resort places) and was satisfied that it was a safe and friendly horse (which was their main goal). It's a 9 year old white paint mare "medicine hat" -- mostly white with some black including the black on the head.

The daughter is already scheduled to take her lessons on this horse so it sounds like it must be reasonably appropriate for her current abilities. I am going to try to get out there this weekend to watch the lesson and see how it's going.

I really appreciate the advice, though, because I'm toying with a new horse purchase in the next year or so.....I expect an empty stall eventually between my very lame pony and my 30 year old boarder.....although I suppose either one of them (or both!) might live forever! But since I'm the impulsive "rescue" horse buyer (hence the barn full of essentially unrideables) I need to really give my next horse purchase some serious thought. I'll start making my list so I'm ready! :P

Thanks again!
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