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Getting behind the bit....an update
Topic Started: Sep 10 2007, 01:32 PM (910 Views)
OpticalIllusion
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Im at my wits end and at a complete loss of what to do next. My pony thinks there are two ways to travel, either like a giraffe or behind the bit. There is no other option as far as he is concerned. Ive tried all I can think of to fix it, its been 2 years, no joke. Ive completely let go of his face and really sent him forward. He will happily travel behind the bit, trotting forward, back round, on a loose rein. Heaven forbid I take up ANY rein contact, he thinks this means touch chin to chest. If we go slow, he will travel with his head in the air. Cantering is the most fun, can we say one big ball? Probably doesnt help that he is not exactly quiet and is definitly not an easy ride.

He recently came off of 6 months of stall rest and I was hopping that when I got back on him he would not be so set on going behind the bit. No such luck. This horse remembers everything.

So Im open for ANY suggestions, even off the wall ones.

This is a picture of him, he isnt way behind in this picture because we were schooling at a show and he had stuff to look at to occupy him, but you get the picture. Im going to try to get someone to video tape me riding him this weekend, Im sure its easier to see what he is doing, maybe Im causing something, not sure.
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Delia
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My OTTB was like this for about a year. In addition to going behind the bit, he also seemingly could point each joint from jaw to hocks in a different direction. For mine, he started out with a weak hind end and it was his way of trying to get me to take his mouth, push him forward and hold him together rather than carry himself. I also had a tendency to pitch forward a bit, so I think my seat was partially to blame.

He got much better as his hind end got stronger -- lots of walking and trotting up hills. And I spent our first winter together in the indoor ring riding on a loose rein and trying hard to stay right in the middle of him or a little behind the vertical while I let go of his front end. All turning/bending and lateral work was done with my legs and seat. At the canter I often dropped my stirrups, held my reins in one hand, wayout in front of me,and put my other arm behind my back so that I was sitting very deep and absolutely not taking a hold of his mouth. Having someone longe me on him with no reins or stirrups was helpful too. And we trotted lots of cavaletti, cantered ground poles and did tons of gymnastics with no reins. He (and I) came out of that winter much better balanced and he was much less inclined to get behind the bit. Good luck!
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SnackPack
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My WB was like that...HATED any contact with his mouth and would float behind the bit or be all giraffe like. We started him in a rubber D-ring snaffle with a running martingale. Stayed there for a few months, working on forward and/or not breaking our noses. He graduated out of the running martingale in about 3 months, but still would get behind the bit. We switched him to a French link and that helped some. Then a KK Ultra which helped more. Now he's in a Happy Mouth Mullen and that is definitely his favorite bit so far. Favorite enough that he's willing to get heavy on it...something he really wouldn't do in any other bit. We've taken to putting him back in the KK Ultra once or twice a month for a reminder...he's VERY backed off that bit and it takes a lot of leg...and some nice work with a dressage whip to remind him that he can go forward into contact.

He's always been super sensitive about his mouth and I really think that's where his BTV steams from. Well, that and some general laziness...but he just doesn't like contact.
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Delia
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SnackPack's post reminded me that we experimented with bits, because sometimes he would put his head up and cock it, open his mouth and work the bit like crazy whilst being behind and bit. With a crank noseband or flash he would just tuck his nose to his chest. Just lovely. The french link worked the best -- twelve years later that's still what I use on him. I should also give you hope by adding that he eventually turned into a great horse -- very well broke and delightful to flat.
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OpticalIllusion
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He is currently in a french link. He is very heavy on a plain snaffle. We got him with an unknown history. He was broke, just green. Weve had him for several years, my mom worked him for some time but then has given him to me as my hunter is needing to be retired. He is broke to death, will move over off my legs, halts of my seat on a dime, is just great all around. With the exception of course that he is a lot of horse. He LOVES to play. He is very forward. He does have no butt though. I mean seriously nothing. I cant seam to build it up either. Wonder if I can figure that out if he'll start going better.
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Delia
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Hmm, mine also had no butt at first and was extremely forward (and still is). And the fresher he was, the more behind the bit he would be. So I do wonder whether yours might go a little better if you somehow can build up his hind end. Also, I forgot to mention that he is a little parrot-mouthed and has TMJ, so his jaw was really loaded. Some "corrective" floats from a really good dentist relaxed the tension in his jaw, which seemed to help the behind the bit issue as well.
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Brydelle Farm
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A video would be most helpful....

Personally, I prefer a horse to be above the bit than below, b/c I can more easily follow the line to the bit with my hand if they raise their heads, so for a horse that has prefers to go below, I will "bump" their heads up by lifting my outside rein. If their head goes "too high" I just follow with my hands, keeping a light contact and a STRAIGHT line from bit to hand, and keep them coming forward with my leg.

We worry too much about their heads, and need to get their hind ends working. Getting their heads up encourages them to rock back and engage their hind ends. Yes, we won't want them like this in the long run (high headed) but once they get their butts under themselves, balance, build muscle, soften their jaws, toplines, etc, their heads will come down.

There isn't a quick fix for this. It may feel like you are having to take a few steps back but will be worth it in the long run.
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OpticalIllusion
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The odd thing is, he is engaging his haunches and rounding up through the back. Ive tried bumping him with my hands, as well as giving him a little nidge with one heal, I get more behind the bit. :brickwall:
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Brydelle Farm
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OpticalIllusion
Sep 12 2007, 03:21 AM
The odd thing is, he is engaging his haunches and rounding up through the back. Ive tried bumping him with my hands, as well as giving him a little nidge with one heal, I get more behind the bit. :brickwall:

If possible, give us a glimpse of this...

Is it possible he is "hunching" his back more than rounding and become more of a ball and moving up and down vs really engaging and moving forward, b/c if he was doing the latter he would move up into your hand....

How does he move when you aren't on him? Have you had him checked by a vet/chiro for back/spinal issues?
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OpticalIllusion
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Brydelle Farm
Sep 12 2007, 03:42 PM
OpticalIllusion
Sep 12 2007, 03:21 AM
The odd thing is, he is engaging his haunches and rounding up through the back. Ive tried bumping him with my hands, as well as giving him a little nidge with one heal, I get more behind the bit.  :brickwall:

If possible, give us a glimpse of this...

Is it possible he is "hunching" his back more than rounding and become more of a ball and moving up and down vs really engaging and moving forward, b/c if he was doing the latter he would move up into your hand....

How does he move when you aren't on him? Have you had him checked by a vet/chiro for back/spinal issues?

" he is "hunching" his back more than rounding and become more of a ball and moving up and down"

This is exactly what he is doing. I was trying to figure out how to explain it. His back is round, his haunches are under him, just not in any way I want him to be. Its like sitting on a rubber ball. If I only ask him to jog (think western pleasure) he is fine. Nice and level and head right where it should be. The moment I ask him to step up, I get the rubber ball effect. Its 20 times worse at the canter. He's also cold backed for the first 2 minutes I get on him and he has super sensitive skin. I have to be soft when I brush him or he will freak out, break free, and gallop off.

He's had a full extensive work up and had the chiropractor work on him. He was here at my office (I work for Dr Flynn) for several weeks trying to figure out about a mystery lameness he had, which we fixed, and he got xrays of everything including his neck and back while he was here.

Ill video tape it this weekend. He is.... odd.
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Delia
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OK, yours is sounding more and more like mine -- including being cold-backed, mega-sensitive to grooming and mystery lameness. He had several unsatisfying rounds of diagnostics at a really good vet clinic, which never nailed down anything specific. Then a vet/acupuncturist looked at him and diagnosed him with serious immune deficits stemming from a subtle adverse reactions to his rhino vaccine. She said it feels like shingles in humans, and typically manifests in hind end issues that look a little neuro. She treated his immune points several times and recommended that I put him on a daily dose of lysine. I was dubious, but I figured what the hell, it couldn't hurt. And she turned out to be right. Literally the day after his first acupuncture treatment he no longer was cold-backed, girthy or sensitive to grooming. After about 3 acupuncture treatments and a month of lysine the mystery hind end issues went away completely. He's been on lysine for about 5 years, but only needs acupuncture every 3 months or so. I always know when he's due because he gets grouchy about grooming and/or he starts tripping behind at the trot. And now I make sure he gets acupuncture before his spring and fall shots. So . . . I know it sounds weird, but it might be worth checking out.
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Brydelle Farm
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OI - Looking forward to seeing the video... Delia makes some good points also, something to think about....

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OpticalIllusion
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Ok, the videos suck because they are off my regular camera, long story. My mom had very limited time so I only got three very short clips. But you can get the idea.

Trotting normally. This is how he will go. Hind end is slightly under him but back is not round. He can do this all day long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVhcOE6HOO8

I did half ring on contact and half ring on no contact (last part down the long side). The only difference is that when I completely let go, we build a lot of speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLvs5hfQFIk

Ive got one more of him really going behind the bit at the canter through a corner, just waiting for it to load.
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OpticalIllusion
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Heres the last one. You can see he really tucks when I indirect rein him through the corners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6x-940PeGQ

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Brydelle Farm
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Just a few things I noticed from the clips...

It isn't nearly as bad as I expected based on your post, he is very cute. :) He isn't horribly behind the bit, but more dropping his poll as well as being flexed at the poll. You are looking down alot, as well as your reins are too long, you can have contact and light contact with a shorter rein, by using your elbow better. Use your seat to control balance the pace that is being supported by your leg more than your hand.

JF's warmup on the buckle would be good for this horse, starting just with the walk, turning, and halt transitions (NO rein), building to trot and canter. This takes confidence in your horse, as well as confidence of your horse in you.

As I said earlier, I would get this horse's head UP, nose out a bit, continue to build muscle and teach him balance, and then follow his head his natural carriage.

Hope this helps! :)
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