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Judges for IHF eastern regional and Sallie Wheeler
Topic Started: Jul 5 2007, 07:47 PM (1,671 Views)
lauriep
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Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
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As usual, the IHF site is not up to date, and lists no judges at all. And, in searching for the judges for the Sallie Wheeler championship, I went to the Blenheim Equisports site, where they have the prizelist online for the west coast phase (judges would be the same for both), and the dates and all are correct, but the judges listed are Linda Andrisani and Mike Elmore, who were LAST YEAR'S JUDGES!

Does anyone have a clue to the IHF eastern regional, and Sallie Wheeler judges?? I'm on a mission!!
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Silver Bells
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Magical Leopluridon
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I know that Thom Brede is judging Warrenton. Thom and Carol Moloney are doing the IHF, and Carol is also one of the judges for the Sallie Wheeler.

However, this could change :unsure:
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lauriep
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Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
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Boy, if that is the case, it puts three competitions in very limited hands, re: judging. If Thom does both the regular and IHF, and Carol does IHF and the Sallie Wheeler (which REALLY doesn't seem right to me), that doesn't leave much room for a horse that one or the other may not care for.

We have GOT to get some new blood into this sport! :brickwall:
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Silver Bells
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Magical Leopluridon
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We have tons of new blood in this sport.... <_<

Cindi and I keep hearing how great it is that we are getting involved and getting others involved in hunter breeding. Well then the "old guard" needs to make room for us... encourage people instead of driving us/them away with politics and unobjectivity. If people are to be attracted to this sport... then the playing field has to be somewhat level and objective. I sometimes get the impression the class is pinned before we even enter the ring. :o Just my opinion... that's all.


I agree luariep, the judge's pool at Warrenton, the IHF, and the Sallie Wheeler needs to be broadened. I for one am contemplating being a spectator as I was at Upperville. It will be a partial repeat of Devon... that's for sure! :soapbox:
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lauriep
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Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
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All of your observations are, unfortunately too true. I have different connections than you do, but hear/see all the same things, and know the probable outcome before we even go. And, Thom Brede is the flavor du jour. Last year, Upperville and the IHF finals. Now this year, Devon and the IHF regionals? What gives?

It is extremely discouraging that the important competitions of the year are preordained. I like Kenny as much as anyone does, but come on! Do you really believe he has had the best young horse for 20+ consecutive years at Devon? Are the judges afraid to do what is right? Do they think they are safe putting him up? I don't know the answer, but it is infuriating, and discouraging to the rest of us.

There is still a "good ole boy" network on the HB committee, and I think membership should be opened up so that new blood could actually contribute. And as far as becoming HB judges, there certainly aren't people tearing down the doors to get their cards. Are they being discouraged? The pool is SOOO small...
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Silver Bells
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Magical Leopluridon
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I am afraid you are 100% correct! Something has to give... and soon! :brickwall:
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mintyfresh
I Visited Candy Mountain and All I Got Was This Lousy Incision
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May I add some observations as an ammy who just jumped in this year?

Hunter Breeding is just not a welcoming sport for most ammys. If it wasn't for being on the 'net and primarily this board I probably wouldn't have bothered this season because it's just so hard to find information, especially if you aren't connected within the hunter/HB world to start with.

Compare HB to the riding hunter world and you start seeing a lot of where the issues probably are. Could you imagine the regular hunter world without ammy riders? How much smaller and more insular would it become? I think that's what's happening in the HB. The whole idea of "if you don't have a pro handler don't bother" really hurts a lot of chances for this sport to grow.

I certainly think there needs to be pro handlers just like you need pro riders. The difference is that I can go to a trainer and learn to be a better rider. There's nowhere to go to learn to be a better handler, and in fact it seems to be actively discouraged.

I don't think the ammy handler class is the answer either. If an ammy is going to bother to bring their horse all the way out to a HB show they are going to want the horse judged at some point, not just themselves. It also doesn't really help anything if you can't find instruction in the first place. The judges aren't out there to give you tips on how to improve. It would be like trying to learn to ride hunters just by entering the adult ammy hunter classes. Without a trainer you can ride in all the classes you'd like and still never know what you are doing wrong.


All that said I do want to add that I've been having a great time showing this season. It forced me to learn to braid finally, decaf got a lot of experience, and considering the absolutely gorgeous horses we've been showing against I've generally been very happy with how we've been doing. In fact there's only one judge that sticks out in my mind as a "never showing under that one again".

I just feel very strongly that to bring people to HB it needs to become more open and accessible to the average person.
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HeartofGoldFarm
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Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
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I agree 100% with everything Minty said. I've been wanting to get into it for a couple of years now, but have found the whole, "don't bother if you don't have a pro handler" issue a big discouragement. Couple that with, "you can't get a good pro handler because they are all booked by their regulars from one year to next" and you have a huge wall for newcomers to climb to even consider getting into the sport.

I also agree that the sense of many competitions being "preordained" discourages people from even wanting to bother. I have a lot of resistance from my husband to even try hunter breeding because the politics of it discourages him so. He feels the youngsters can get similar experience doing the DSHB shows without half the hassle or politics. While it is good experience for a young horse to do the line classes, it can be demoralizing for someone who clearly has a very nice young horse, to always find themselves at the bottom simply because the top handlers are a given to win. Yes, the top handlers often do have the best horse, but really, if I had come to Devon two years ago with Spanish Spear hanging on the end of a line and Kenny Wheeler had had a appaloosa/donkey cross with sickle hocks and two left feet, who do you think would have won the Best Young Horse?

I suppose it is unlikely to ever happen, but if the regular hunter breeding classes will always be the political playground of the pros, what about instituting Amateur classes where the horse is actually judged? Adult Amateur hunter classes are probably the biggest classes in the hunters these days. Why not Amateur Yearling Non-TB hunter breeding classes etc.? Classes where Amateurs would only compete against amateurs, but the horses would be judged, not the handler? Would this be anything the hunter breeding world would consider? I think that might open the door for new blood to come into the sport. I agree with Minty, the Amateur handler class is not the answer. I have no interest in being judged or competing to be the "best" Amateur handler, I want my horse judged.
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BHILL
I Visited Candy Mountain and All I Got Was This Lousy Incision
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Just an idea we did in Florida. At one of our breeding shows at the end of the classes. The judge did a short young horse clinic. Showing any interested attendees how to set up a young horse, what the judge is looking for, etc. He answered many questions and it was very enlightening. Everyone really enjoyed it and it did not take long at all.
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lauriep
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Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
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Re: amateur handlers. If you have a very nice horse, and by nice, I mean you are excruciatingly honest with yourself about your horse's faults as well as its virtues, and you understand conformation, and what is being used in the HB ring, then you will be found by the judge. Yes, you must be able to show your horse as well as a pro, or almost, but if you do your homework and your horse shows itself for you, you can place well. You may not beat the pro (although that isn't impossible either), but you will get a fair shot. Now, under a political judge, and there are far too many of them, you won't win, but neither will another pro. And pros get known because they are out there, week after week, presenting quality animals for show. You need to do it often enought to get known, become a face that judges recognize. That is important.

I think at the really imortant shows, like Devon, Upperville, and IHF, you should go with a pro and give your horse its best shot. But at any others, I think you can place and win if all the pieces are there.

What is also important, IMO MOST important, is to not take this too seriously. We try and make our owners understand that this is simply a way to kill time with a young horse prior to its being old enough for performance, and in the long run, means absolutely nothing to the horse's potential value. If you can keep that thought uppermost, you will enjoy yourself, learn a lot, and have a horse who has seen it all before he is 3. That is not a bad deal. You will still have the nice horse you believe yourself to have, regardless of what some stranger, whose credentials you don't even know, thinks.

One more thing. I know people say "I just want the experience, I don't care about the ribbon," but then they DO care after all, and complain if they don't do well. But they also have taken their sunbleached, untrained, poorly braided animal out of the field and expect to compete. Sorry, but if you want to be competitive, you must look the part. And the part means fat, shiny, not sunbleached, trimmed and braided well, and taught to stand and pose and trot when told to do so. If you don't want to look like an amateur, get help to look like a pro.
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HeartofGoldFarm
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lauriep
Jul 7 2007, 12:37 PM
Re: amateur handlers.  If you have a very nice horse, and by nice, I mean you are excruciatingly honest with yourself about your horse's faults as well as its virtues, and you understand conformation, and what is being used in the HB ring, then you will be found by the judge.  Yes, you must be able to show your horse as well as a pro, or almost, but if you do your homework and your horse shows itself for you, you can place well.  You may not beat the pro (although that isn't impossible either), but you will get a fair shot.  Now, under a political judge, and there are far too many of them, you won't win, but neither will another pro.  And pros get known because they are out there, week after week, presenting quality animals for show.  You need to do it often enought to get known, become a face that judges recognize.  That is important.

First of all, I am not speaking of any particular horse of mine not doing well, in fact, because of some serious family issues, we had to bag the idea of showing in the hunters altogether this year. And knowing how hunter breeding works, I would have only done it for the experience had I had the opportunity. But I have read you say yourself laurie, that if you are an amateur, you have to show a while before the judges will use your horse, even if it is very nice, and "earn" a place. Why? Why shouldn't it just be a case of who has the best horse? Why should the judge "knowing" you, the handler, rather than the horse, matter? And if that is a given, is it really a surprise that many people don't feel it is worth the bother?

As Minty said, I'm not advocating that there is no need for pros, or that pros shouldn't be winning or whatever, I'm simply saying that with the "one horse, one handler" rule in hunter breeding, and often more horses that want to compete than pro handlers(at least in some divisions), that some people's only option for entering hunter breeding is to do it themselves. A couple of years ago, I had a youngster that several hunter breeding people told me would do very well on the line, so I asked around to find a handler and found everyone I inquired about was already booked for yearling Non-TB fillies. Because of the political nature of hunter breeding, I was too intimidated to consider showing her myself against the pros, so I sat her out. Had there been classes for amateurs where SHE had been judged, not me, I would have tried them in a heartbeat.

As I see it, everyone talks about wanting to breathe new life into hunter breeding, but then doesn't really want to make any changes. That's just my outsider's humble opinion. And I think it is erroneous, and perhaps part of the overall problem in how amateurs are automatically viewed in this sport, to assume that just because a horse has an amateur handler it will be sunbleached, untrained and poorly groomed. When I have been to hunter breeding classes, the horses I have seen in the amateur handler class have, with an occasional exception, been comparable in all of those qualities, to the ones the pros are competing. And as a breeder, even though I am not a pro handler, I don't present shaggy field animals at shows and I don't really know any breeders who do.

BTW--sorry to get your thread off track laurie. I know you were speaking of opening judging up to new blood rather than competitors. I just couldn't resist supporting minty's comments, and I really do think the two are related. Potential competitors are being discouraged by politics in judging...but I think the solution is both opening up the judging pool and finding ways to open up the pool of competitors, and unless the "one handler, one horse" rule is going to change, which of course it isn't, then maybe considering encouraging amateur participation IS an important part of revitalizing hunter breeding.
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Silver Bells
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Magical Leopluridon
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lauriep
Jul 7 2007, 04:37 PM
Now, under a political judge, and there are far too many of them, you won't win, but neither will another pro. 
I think at the really imortant shows, like Devon, Upperville, and IHF, you should go with a pro and give your horse its best shot.  But at any others, I think you can place and win if all the pieces are there.

What is also important, IMO MOST important, is to not take this too seriously. 
One more thing.  I know people say "I just want the experience, I don't care about the ribbon," but then they DO care after all, and complain if they don't do well.

Herein the problem lies... politics. As WE ALL saw at so many shows this year, the most correct, best moving horses did not win.
There is defintely an art to handling young horses, one which I cannot and frankly do not want to master. There is a definite need for professional handlers. However, they should also be willing to educate their clients and be honest with them. <_<

WE NEED NEW JUDGES, AND SOME OF THE CURRENT ONES NEED TO RE-EVALUATE WHY THEY ARE JUDGING, DO THE RIGHT THING IN THE RING, AND MAYBE EVEN GET AN EYE EXAM!!!
I disagree, we must take this seriously! It costs just as much money to win as it does to loose. So if I am going to all the trouble to make sure my horses are presented well, and belong to be in the ring.... I want a fair shot as an owner.

Heartofgoldfarm & Mintyfresh... don't be discouraged. Getting involved is the best thing to do. We can start spending our money wisely, not get taken advantage of, and support those in the industry that fit ALL our needs.

Trainers, handlers, and judges have to realize without us exhibitors is might be sort of boring. A choice has to be made... and soon! :soapbox:
If we do not care for the judges, and feel it's going to be one of those "pre-ordained" shows, we can stay home and when asked say... simply state "Why should I throw ALL THIS MONEY away, Hell, I can stand on a bridge and do that... and feel the same afterwards." And please don't always fall for the "good experience for the horse line"... catch the show you feel you will have a fair chance at. There sure are enough of them... at least 2 per week from April thru June.

And please.... feel free to PM, email, or call me anytime to discuss this very important topic that is having such a negative impact in the HB world. :brickwall:
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lauriep
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First, there is no "one horse, one handler" rule. Ask Ray Francis, who is the only one I know who regularly takes advantage of this loophole. That is why Devon has to specifically say "one horse, one handler" for their show. But I digress...

When I say you need to get exposure, not only do I mean so the judges get to see you regularly bringing a nice animal to them, but also to give you the ring experience to really become a competitor. Whether you have the best horse or not doesn't matter a hill of beans if you can't show it to its best advantage, and the pros you are competing against know all the tricks to make theirs look perfect. If I were a judge, and had 2 individuals I liked equally, I would then have to look at showmanship and who is doing the best job of selling their horse to me. Pros practice this over and over, week in and week out, and have learned how to disguise inumerable faults. An amateur needs to have that ring"savvy"in order to be competitive. Politics aside, experience counts. And I see MANY amateurs bring in horses that are not in condition and not turned out as well as they need to be. Saying it shouldn't matter is silly because it does matter and if you want to play the game, you have to dress the part. Not all amateurs, but a good many at the shows I attend.

I doubt they will add amateur classes where the horse is judged because it is enough of a struggle to get many shows just to offer HB in their busy schedules. It is the redheaded stepchild. So getting them to offer a whole other set of classes, much less buy ribbons and trophies for said classes, isn't likely, IMO. But I DO believe amateurs can show successfully against the pros if they are willing to do the work to become good handlers. It is a horse SHOW and you must know how to present your exhibit.

Interestingly, today at the Warrenton Pony show, the judge was someone that no one I talked to had ever heard of and knew nothing about. But the same "go to" person in ponies still won all the classes and BYH and Breeding Champion. Politics? Or just someone who is very good at what he does?
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lauriep
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Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
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SB, yes it is serious, but at the end of the day, no one buys a performance horse based on its HB winnings. Most trainers don't pay any attention, because so many line winners are never seen again. We are trying to change that perception by going forward into performance with our babies, but I think you would be hard pressed to find a trainer who looks for horses that have won on the line. And if I know that I have a nice horse/pony, I don't really give a rat's patootie what someone I don't necessarily respect thinks.

And, while I agree with you that we desperately need new judges, many of them, who is going to teach them? Where do we find people who really understand conformation, type and soundness enough to judge? I don't have the answer to that question...
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virginiabred
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lauriep
Jul 8 2007, 05:38 PM
Interestingly, today at the Warrenton Pony show, the judge was someone that no one I talked to had ever heard of and knew nothing about.  But the same "go to" person in ponies still won all the classes and BYH and Breeding Champion.  Politics?  Or just someone who is very good at what he does?

Or was it just a case of the judge not being sure of what she was doing, so "let me just continue to pin the same handler over and over and over again and I'll probably look like I do know what I'm doing".

That's what it looked like from my seat.
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