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| Big Vent; Why oh why must people be so snarky | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 6 2007, 09:59 AM (1,817 Views) | |
| Powder Coated | Jun 7 2007, 07:16 PM Post #16 |
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Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
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no fair manami ....you live so close......I am going to miss this little guy so MUCH!! I just got in from a soft brushing ..cuddle fest with him.......he has a little pink snip on his nose I call the kiss button! It does make me feel so much better to think about the wonderful home he is going to!!! Maybe oneday I will take a trip down to see him show!
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| mpetrecz | Jun 7 2007, 07:58 PM Post #17 |
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Thomas H. Cruise!
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I was really put off by the comment about some stallion that couldn't jump, being used for the other track of breeder/buyers. I'm new to this breeding thing, and I'm learning that most breeders-colored horses or non-colored horses- are all working towards the same thing. they want a beautiful hunter. I took offence. I dont' know the stallion you were talking about, I don't know you. I am older also and have dabbled in hunters for way too many yrs to post. I see a disconnect between breed and preformance, but am starting to see thru different eyes. Most breeders breed to win on the line....the flawless hunters. It's very hard to eek a living and be fussy to the point of gettign their young stock into show homes. they get them into the best homes they can, but showing competitive homes is a different thing. I always thought that there are alot more riders that really don't know how to put a show horse together and get it out, than riders that do know how. Alot of potential buyers work with trainers, trainers that are looking for interest in the sale and prospect and can find lots of other prospects. The entire thing is difficult to pin down. I took offence because I spent alot of time looking for a broodmare, I found a nice mare pregnant to Canadian Kid. OK, I love my mare,,,...really love my mare. her foal is born colored, very big. I don't know what Canadian Kid did. I do know palomino's were laughed at in our day....I knew Gold Apollo....the chestnut(??!!) and loved him anyway. Canadian Kid has produced hunters, on the line and preformance. I've spoken to the owner and she is thrilled that I'm going to put this filly together and show her. Now I know why. So I apologize if I offended you and got upset over your comment. I still think this is such a challenging sport, we need all the support we can get, with each other, for each other, and for the horses and our sport. Mary L Petrecz |
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| fossiloverfences | Jun 7 2007, 09:18 PM Post #18 |
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Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
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Mary - no offense taken. I thought - as you have pointed out - it was just a misunderstanding of what was posted. Bravo to you - I really like Canadian Kid. He is a stallion I have admired: performance and beauty - what's not to love!
Lucky you - please post pics when you can!
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| Norsire | Jun 7 2007, 09:35 PM Post #19 |
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Thomas H. Cruise!
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Small correction...Canadian Kid was never shown nor broke to ride unless this is very recent with him being 17 years old now. Now some of his foals have shown and done well. He only has 9 Jockey Club Reg foals from all his years at stud as of right now. I bought my mare Queen Debonair from the guy who also bred and owned CK until he was sold through a sale in KY during a bad snow storm when Terri Brown had someone bid for her on him. He was also the last owner of Milkie. CK and my mare were the last two Milkies ever born.
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| spacely | Jun 7 2007, 10:37 PM Post #20 |
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Chief Dragon Herder
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The thing is FOF, I HAVE proven you wrong before on another BB. You just don't seem to get it or won't. I am not going to get into a pissing match with you since it does no good, but horses like Alla Czar, Zarr, Don Alfredo, Rio Grande, Aristos B, Castle Magic & Absolut to name a few have long lists of babies out there that have won on the line as well as under saddle. Funny, I don't think Sir Caletto or Corlando do, which in your opinion, are the better producers (most certainly not IMO). Sir Caletto's oldest crop should be out there doing something, yet I don't think they are. The IHF does not count, so would you like to tell me what your favorite stallions have produced? Will it even compare to Alla Czar, Rio Grande or Don Alfredo's record? I hardly think so. |
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| clearound | Jun 7 2007, 11:23 PM Post #21 |
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Thomas H. Cruise!
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FOF - I am not sure how many examples that you need to be proven wrong, but Spacely gave you a bunch of good ones. If you have been around for as long as you say and have been to as many big venues as you claim, than you must remember the successful line horses that Sallie Sexton showed, many of who went on to be highy successful hunters and jumpers. I was fortunate enough to buy a horse as a three year old hunter prospect that was number 1 in the country as a yearling and second in the country as a 2 year old. Although he consistently won in the hunters, we moved him to the jumpers, without me as his jockey, due to his awesome jumping, where for several years he won in the best of company in the Open Jumpers and Grand Prixs. I retired him a few years ago due to bad feet. However, many of his siblings who were by a TB Stallion named Princely Ruler, were, if they had owners that opted to show them in the breeding divisions, were very successful line horses and then equally as successful in hunters and jumpers. They were bred to be great as peformance horses but were also extremely correct. You also fail to take into consideration that many people choose not to show their youngsters in the breeding or the IHF. I personally would not show my youngsters in the performance aspect of the IHF as I believe that it is too much stress on them too early in their lives. Conversely, for a variety of reasons, some of the successful line horses are not shown at the big AA shows and therefore, as per your argument, they would have failed at performance horses. For example, let's say that the the horse who was named Best Young Horse at Devon this year was sold to a person who only showed at the local level. They didn't show at WEF, Devon, Thermal, or even the smaller rated shows. According to your logic, this would be an example of a horse that was successful in the HB but not as a performance horse because you would not be able to find their record anywhere. I do not think it as simple as you make it out to be. BTW, here is a pic of my line horse: |
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| La Gringa | Jun 8 2007, 04:41 AM Post #22 |
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Starving Artist
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I think the goal of breeding should be performance. For some though it is a beauty pageant on the line... just like in show dogs.. there are "bench" dogs and dogs that perform in obedience or field trials. The "standards" of the judging in breeding should be to promote the horses that "look best to suit the job" of being a hunter, not just on a pretty face or flashy markings. Unfortunately politics come in to play heavily (in dogs and horses for that matter) and such is life. We don't live in a perfect world. Showing is showing, the hunter world isn't going to change the politics, it's part of it. What irks me a lot sometimes though is when someone does have a fabulous baby, put together well, pretty, turned out to the T, but still doesn't place because they don't have "such and such handler" handling the horse. That is BS. But it's life, that too isn't going to change. If you are going to play the game you have to be willing to understand the politics. I would like to see more breeding classes for jumpers as well as hunters. Why aren't there more of those classes? Maybe more divisions would even out the field for whatever dicipline you are striving to breed for. Just a thought. I know the dressage people have their breeding classes for example. Are there any for jumpers? When people here say they are breeding for H/J I think 90% mean hunters, don't they? It seems so. |
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| fossiloverfences | Jun 8 2007, 07:34 AM Post #23 |
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Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
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I try and I try and still so much nastiness. Clearround - I am speaking about the last 8-10 years. Back "then" it was different. I started showing in the 60's - rode conformation horses from Waverly, owned by Chris Parker - Center Strip and Fiddling Gilder to name a few. And I agree with you CR about the data, the IHF, and the other factors you mention. Spacely has given me a list of stallions. No offspring. Lots of vitriole. I am a huge fan of Rio Grande (RIP) as I love his offspring but I did not know that any of them, like Rio Renoir or Eye Remember Rio, showed on the line? Did they? As for the other stallions, I don't know of any Don Alfredos yet in the show ring, he is a very nice stallion - I know there is a very nice AC in Arizona that DID win on the line and is now showing. Not sure of any Zarr's. So do I feel proven "WRONG" - no. I have stated an opinion, and spacely and clearround have stated their OPINIONS and until we all have facts to support these opinions, none of us is either RIGHT or WRONG far as I can tell. If we take the winners on the line (Devon, Upperville for instance) over the last 5 years can we track them into the show ring with any regularity? I am excited to follow Capital Hill's course as Nob Hill is an all that stallion in MY opinion. so once again, and I think for the very last time given how unpleasant some are here: hunter BREEDING classes were intended to showcase the best in breeding for potential hunter PERFORMANCE horses. These days I am not so sure that is true. And Spacely, pissing on the stallions I have bred to or bought foals of? So unattractive. I made choices based on the best knowledge I could take to the equation. Good mares, GREAT jumping stallions. Good temperments. One stallion with talented offspring, one stallion a winner in the hunter ring. And last a stallion I have watched newly in the hunter ring - Do I KNOW if any of these offspring will make good hunters or jumpers. Absolutely not. I sure hope they do! And Norsire, I was mistaken then - I thought it was the paly eventing stallion. Shame on me. Teach me to opine about any horse of color with you around :lol: |
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| La Gringa | Jun 8 2007, 07:47 AM Post #24 |
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Starving Artist
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The fact is NONE of us know when we breed a mare if the baby is going to be perfect. Breeding is a gamble every single time. We can minimize the risk by educating ourselves and carefully selecting horses, but even then it's a risk. For me I am willing to take the risk on a stallion that has the bloodlines to do it and the physical ability to do it. Do I know if he or his offspring will be winners for sure at Devon or any other show for that matter? Of course not. Only time will tell that. Do I think he will probably will be sucessful and his babies as wel? Well his father, grandsire, great grandsire certainly proved themselves, so I think the chances are pretty good. Same goes for my mare... All we can do is make educated choices and hope for the best, and then provide the best care, upbringing and training we can.. and see what we get. I think it's fun and exciting and challenging all at the same time. |
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| Silver Bells | Jun 8 2007, 07:55 AM Post #25 |
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Magical Leopluridon
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Maybe if ALL of us with ALL these factors in mind, can start to reverse the current trend.
For one reason or another HB winners get lost in the shuffle after their "line" days. There are examples to support each opinion. We ALL have picked horses with the intent of getting on them someday and showing them ourselves, or having someone show them for us. Some of us like the HB to pass the time... We need to encourage everyone we can to get involved. We can prove that "pretty is as pretty does". The industry needs people like all of us that have strong passions and opinions. Besides my horses are better that your horses, and my dog is bigger that your dog! :lol: :lol: :lol: |
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| mpetrecz | Jun 8 2007, 08:17 AM Post #26 |
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Thomas H. Cruise!
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I really did enjoy you at shows SB. You inspired me to move up and made it fun. Your nice comments always were inspiring. Hopefully, I'll be out next yr showing on line and back in the Adults. I was just on the usef and the sire list is down. I'm having trouble getting used to the new web site. Have they combined all the results to the stallions??? hunters, breed, jumpers????? Mary |
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| La Gringa | Jun 8 2007, 08:24 AM Post #27 |
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Starving Artist
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My dog SLOBBERS more than your dog!! :lol: |
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| kinsella | Jun 8 2007, 10:38 AM Post #28 |
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Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
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But my dog runs faster!! And my other dog sheds more!! Oh, wait, that I am not so happy with... Seriously, I agree with FOF. For the massive numbers of foals of some of the "name" stallions, there is an inordinately LOW number of performance offspring. Looking at it from that perspective it appears *to me* that the MARE is having a bigger influence than the stallion in those offspring. I'm NOT going to be one naming names of stallions - I know who I do and do not like, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am not going to knock any stallion publicly because it does affect people other than those of us having this conversation. And we have to admit that there are those that breed for color rather than substance. But that happens in every breed or discipline. I agree that the majority of breeders are breeding for the best athlete they can. Oh, and IIRC, Terri told me (years ago) that CK didn't compete due to a stifle injury. It's the stallions - in general, not just the blingy & colored ones - that don't have an excuse for not competing that bother me... I don't want to breed to something that has not at least gone and attempted to do something on an open circuit, so long as they were physically able (if they weren't mentally able I don't want to breed to them anyway!!). Oh, and as for my mare by Corlando - a stallion I love and am vocal about supporting - not competing yet, though she is certainly old enough - she injured herself and instead of pushing her to get to the show ring today, I'd rather make darned sure I am still going to have a horse to ride in 10 years. |
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| CanadianStarz | Jun 8 2007, 12:01 PM Post #29 |
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Magical Leopluridon
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[QUOTwhat bothers me a bit is that when saying that any horse is "leading his division", one has to take into account the fact that he's done more shows than the horses below him. Leading a division may or may not mean anything. E] Wise words Quoted above IMO After attending some of the Line Shows in the past 8 to 10 yrs. Looking around, it is a nice event to see a lot of Horses and Folk without travelling, but ,I surely would NOT base my Personal Purchasing on Line Show results. Showed "MANY" Animals, and Stallions, years back to Supreme Championships, Legion of Merit etc. etc. But I felt at that time, the Points obtained IMO meant more somehow? In the "Legion Of Merit" Point System, there HAD to be at least 4 in the Class to obtain "1 actual recordable Point". Just pouring out biggie bucks and travelling miles to get a First Place Ribbon in a class of ONE, "just did not mean all that much," other than collecting another pretty ribbon and Silver Tray, to add to the stack.HECK....in those days, with Judges like Good Ole Peter Cameron.....some folk actually took home 2and place ribbons in a Class of one, "if Peter C truly thought that was an appropriate placing!" (Even saw him remove a false tail from one competitor, hand it to the handler, and point him the way to the outgate!!!!) Sure put folks on their toes, for Rules and Regulations and Fairness in Presentation for the next Shows . Peter, could quite fairly place his animals, "regardless of WHO was on the end of the lead shank, and GIVE reasons", for the placings to the Spectators, and Owners alike. And what I personally thought, was in excellent form.....If one of the handlers or owners, was in violation of code of conduct or in conflict etc. "the situation was IMMEDIATELY rectified. Hopefully the majority of the shows operate in this mannor, but some I have witnessed personally, sure had some areas of concern, which were not addressed.OK...... all vented from "Crusty Corners North"! Carry on,
and enjoy whatever Mode of Showing you enjoy best! Everyone has a right to their Opinions, and Mode of Enjoyment. |
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| fossiloverfences | Jun 8 2007, 01:58 PM Post #30 |
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Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
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Just for continued information, here are the results from the latest Oaks show: Cunningham and Westporte are in the hunt - BOTH doing well - http://horseshowtime.com/showshowresults.asp?Show=1552 Go John! go Jack! my only comment is - 3 full divisions! Yikes, give the guy (Cunningham) a break. |
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no fair manami ....you live so close......I am going to miss this little guy so MUCH!!



Now some of his foals have shown and done well. He only has 9 Jockey Club Reg foals from all his years at stud as of right now. I bought my mare Queen Debonair from the guy who also bred and owned CK until he was sold through a sale in KY during a bad snow storm when Terri Brown had someone bid for her on him. He was also the last owner of Milkie. CK and my mare were the last two Milkies ever born.
and still so much nastiness. 
Hopefully the majority of the shows operate in this mannor, but some I have witnessed personally, sure had some areas of concern, which were not addressed.
all vented from "Crusty Corners North"! Carry on,

12:06 PM Jul 11