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Any suggestions for this horse; Another bitting question
Topic Started: Apr 11 2007, 05:27 AM (374 Views)
jleegriffith
Schooling
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My newest project is a big 16.3 h 5 yr tb built like a warmblood. I have had him for around three months and he's going to either be an eventer or jumper. Way to much knee action and hock action for hunters but I event so it's all good.

Just to preface I have brought along around 100 ottb's so this is not my first one. I have a lot of experience but he is a bit baffling. He's had his teeth done and no other issues.

I have been struggling with getting this horse happy in the bridle. I started out with snaffles- kk ultra, eggbutt french link, happy mouth mullen and baucher french link. Of course I would like to ride in the snaffle but I am doing more harm than good. In the snaffles the horse just trucks around and I end up having to use more rein than I want to. He's not a puller though and really not heavy in the hand. He just doesn't understand the hand. I basically have no brakes which can be a bit unnerving because I ride in an open grass field. You can half halt and do transitions upon transitions and he just doesn't get that when you close your hand and slow your body he must come back. I did take him out x-country in the french link baucher and he jumps anything you point him towards but you have to do a one rein stop to slow him down..not fun!

I tried him in a rubber straight bar pelham with two reins and lovely horse emerged who just could be ridden with the lightest contact and was so responsive. However, when jumping in that bit it was too much and he was jumping straight up and straight down even with the no contact so I switched to a two ring elevator. I don't think he likes that either. It feels like it's too much and he's fighting it by opening his mouth and tilting his head. I have plenty of brakes but almost too much.

I am not sure what else to try. He has a really fat tongue and not a lot of room in his mouth so I am trying to stay with a thinner bit. He also wears a 5.5" bit so I don't have a lot of those . I am trying everything I have. The worst things he does is basically a take off at the trot. He can book it and nothing slows him down and also you can pick up the canter and he just flattens out. Jumping tends to be the best because the jumps back him off and make him think about where he's putting his feet. He needs to learn to listen to the rider and that is not really possible if he's not respecting me. I have soft hands and don't want to pull on him but in the snaffles I have to.

I don't know a whole lot about stronger bits. What does a gag do? Does it sound like it might be helpful on a horse like him? I was thinking of trying a metal mullen pelham thinking the rubber pelham might just be too thick? I am grasping at straws right now. I have a large bit box but don't know what to try next. I think his mouth got sore from that pelham so I am giving him some time to heal. I think the corners are a bit sore. He has very fleshy lips and maybe it was too thick and hurting him.

Any ideas or thoughts would be helpful to hear.

Jessica
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Ann
We're on a bridge, Chaaaaaaaaarlie!
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Call the Mikmar people and discuss bitting with them. I spoke with Dan at Mikmar last week, and he was extremely helpful. You might try the Mikmar combination bit. Some people think it looks like a torture device, but it really is a nice bit. And despite how it looks, it really is not harsh in their mouth. In Mikmar's DVD, they say that horses just seem to understand what you want them to do with their heads when they wear this bit -- sounds strange, but I've found that to be exactly true. Also, I know of several horses that just seem to love that mouthpiece. It might be worth a try.

They are expensive, so you might want to borrow one or find a place that will let you try it and return it if it doesn't work out. Good luck!
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ShawneeAcres
We're on a bridge, Chaaaaaaaaarlie!
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well, personally I'd go back to basics on him. If he does not know "whoa" he needs to learn it. Ride him on the flat and if he won't listen to whoa then IMMEDIATELY and RAPIDLY do a one rein stop ("double him") and wait til his feet are still. Then go back to what you were doing. Repeat this quite a bit, first at the walk and trot, later on at the canter. A hrose needs to whoa and a bigger bit isn't the cure for it. Now trust me I have NO problem with ANY bit being used on a horse, not one of these people who thinks EVERYTHING MUST ALWAYS go in a snaffle! But it sounds like he NEEDS a whoa. If you can't do it, send him for 30 days to a cowboy, he'll elarn to whoa! And it is OH SO NICE, when galloping cross country to be able to SAY whoa and have them respond!!
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jleegriffith
Schooling
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Shawnee- I have been doing this for three months now and he's just doesn't get it. The rest of my horses can stop with just one touch of the finger and all are ridden in snaffles even x-country. I have brought countless horses off the track and they learn whoa pretty quickly. I just do a lot of repeated transitions with them and the figure out closing the hand and sitting tall means whoa and I use my voice. If they run through the aids I might take a bit more contact and then as soon as they slow down I will give them the reins as a reward. I have done the hard stop right now and then soften millions of times and he just doesn't get it. He has no mouth..none what so ever. He's not getting it and I am doing more damage to his mouth doing having to pull so darn hard. I tried the snaffles but amount of body and hand it takes to get him to stop is going to give him a hard mouth and he already resents taking the bit. Right now he doesn't even want to be bridled because I have had to fight him too much with the snaffle and that darn pelham was too much. In the pelham you just had to think whoa and he was there. I only had to close one finger and boom he was right back to me. So perhaps he does have a mouth but just needs a bit he respects.

I really do believe in snaffles and I certainly value a horse that has good brakes. It's just essential to good flatwork and they need to respect your hand and your leg. I would never send any horse to a cowboy. He's a big horse and he doesn't need to be manhandled. I bet jerking on his mouth like that would give him a real fear of the bit even more than what he has now. What do you think they will do to put a whoa on him? Probably just a big old curb bit right? I am sure they are going to have no more sucess stopping him in a snaffle that I do. He's not running flat out but he is a big horse with a huge stride. I prefer to come to a fence with a bit of control.

I think maybe another bit will help him soften in the poll and allow him to be more rideable and then down the road he can go back to a snaffle...but who knows.

I take a lot of lessons but haven't taken him to any yet. I just had a lesson with Sally Cousins last weekend with my other horse but she was too busy to pick her brain. I am going to try to get him up there for an opinion.


I am not tall but I do have some weight to me. He
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SnackPack
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jleegriffith
Apr 11 2007, 04:27 AM
It feels like it's too much and he's fighting it by opening his mouth and tilting his head. I have plenty of brakes but almost too much.


Isn't that a pretty common phase for a young horse to go through? I call it the twisty head phase...seems to go away once they learn what it is you want them to do.

I would be inclined to flat him in something that gave me brakes...get him balanced and working from behind there...and then switch to something else for jumping.
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Ontherun
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Shunnnnn the unbeliever. Shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
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I was made a believer of the mullen mouth rubber snaffle after my last OTTB. He loved this bit. Think pelham without the double rein and curb chain. I would also look into the bridle that uses a poll strap (you have double reins) that works as a gag. Anne Kursinski uses them on her horses. This might aid you in teaching him the "whoa," then you can go back to riding in a snaffle. You can marry this strap with any conventional bit. I would see about the rubber mullen mouth and poll strap since he seemed to respect the pelham. Just an idea. :)
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jleegriffith
Schooling
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on the run- I actually tried that too. I bought a rubber mouth mullen in a loose ring thinking it was the mouthpiece on the pelham that he liked so much. He just ran right through that. I would have to look up that poll strap. I am not sure what that is. I have never used a gag but I know they are not that harsh if used correctly. I don't have one and don't have the pieces to even try one.

snackpack- you could be right about him just going through the i don't really want to phase. In the pelham he's actually really soft and no head tilting or opening the mouth but it doesn't work over fences for him because he must feel it's too much hence the straight up and down. I assumed he didn't like the two ring elevator which is just a regular snaffle and not a french link because of all the head tilting and such but he did have nice foam and listened well. He just generally seemed pissed <_< He liked to run sideways in that bit not really sure why. I would say his favorite bit is the french link baucher as far as jumping but still not enough on flat. It's strange to have a horse you need to bit up for flat and not jumping..figures only me right!

I hate to be a new poster to this board and raise bitting questions which are so hard to diagnose without seeing the horse/rider. My first answer to someone is usually just go back to the flatwork which is the part that feels impossible right now. We have our first event this weekend at intro (2'3) and the dressage will be interesting to say the least. The jumping is actually nice and relaxed in the ring. Now out on x-country we have issues with no brakes but otherwise he's lovely.

In a way it's gotten better than when we started. Then he actually went like a giraffe on crack. Just head up and flying around as fast as he could go at the trot with me doing everything possible to slow his butt down. Canter looked like a race but with the head straight up. He now has learned to relax across the back and soften which makes him more rideable but if you don't catch him with a good half halt before he starts speeding you don't have much luck slowing him down. He's not really taking off he's just doing his own thing.

He rides like a warmblood and not a tb. He uses his size and build to get around the aids. I incorporate a lot of lateral work and transitions to help him work from behind. He has traveled all over for lessons and clinics so he has some mileage. It should be getting better right?

I will keep trying some different options.
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ShawneeAcres
We're on a bridge, Chaaaaaaaaarlie!
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You seem to have the wrong idea of a "cowboy" The ones I know do NOT manhandle a horse, they use a NH type of training that "untracks" the hauches of the horse effectively reducing his ability to brace against you (Whcih is what this horse sounds like he is doing. Frankly, it sounds like you are having to manhandle him, and the trainers (cowboys) I know will have him stopping with NO contact just the word "Whoa" But whatever floats your boat! There is an aussie here that I ahve worked for some and he gets horses from BIG dressage and eventing barns and when they leave him they have a mouth and brakes. Many were problem horses that some of the top dressage and event trainers couldn't get thru to and now they are competing and winning. So "manhandle" doesn't have to be part of the equation. It is much more about proper timing and putting the horse in the right place to respond.

I also would suggest you try a gag and see what that does. I have used a gag on a leaner, not for EVERY ride but for a few and it really made the horse respond and respect a snaffle.
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elektra949
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We're on a bridge, Chaaaaaaaaarlie!
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I had the very same problem with my OTTB. he HATED everything I put in his mouth. I finally found "the bit" and he's awesome in it...... not a lot of "brakes" I don't know the name of it, but I'll find it and post it on here for you.
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Trialbyfire
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ShawneeAcres
Apr 11 2007, 02:31 PM
You seem to have the wrong idea of a "cowboy"  The ones I know do NOT manhandle a horse.

Not to argue, but I think in some areas the concept of a "cowboy" trainer is not a NH person but someone who will hop on and "yee-haw" around on your horse for hours. I inquired about trainers in my area (NY) and a couple of people I know who ride western said "around here, most of the trainers you will find are COWBOY trainers. They'll work her for 4-5 hours a day and send her back in a week "trained."

Now, I doubt that that is really all I could find in my area, but they suggested it was the exact opposite type of trainer I was looking for (someone who could be patient and sensitive and train without manhandling my mare)....and cautioned me against blindly hiring a "trainer" because many of them do try to train via force.

Sorry I have no suggestions on the original question.....regarding bits. I am just doing groundwork with my OTTB mare, but suppose that might be another thing to try while bit shopping; something he might be able to "get" and build from there?

Good luck!
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Heart River
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For what it's worth, my OTTB hated snaffles, ran through them, inverted himself, the whole thing -- what he seemed to like was a rubber pelham. The trick with that was to stop him with the curb rein, not the bit rein - it took very little pressure. I tried a bunch of things but that was the only approach that actually seemed comfortable for him - I guess he just didn't really like the action on his palate or the corners of his mouth.

Obviously if you've started 100s of them you're way ahead of me, but for what it's worth, that's what mine was willing to cooperate with. Back in the day (waaaaaaaaaay back) we used pelhams much more and I was used to using the reins separately. Of course, I also wore canary-yellow corduroy breeches from Kauffman's, so it was back in that century that GM comes from.
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