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The Enigma of Russian Players; Why they have so many troubles away from home?
Topic Started: Dec 5 2011, 09:59 AM (364 Views)
ursus arctos
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I started this discussion on OTF about the enigma of Soviet and Russian players' consistent underperformance in Europe, and would be very interested to hear the thoughts of this group.
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Mr. Pither
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A nice topic and thank for asking for our input on this message board. For those not wanting to go to another website, here is what ursus arctos wrote at that other message board,

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...raised the issue of Russian and ex-Soviet Union players being among football's worst travelers, something I think is worthy of its own thread.

The list of guys who failed to live up to their billing and/or reproduce their past form is as long as the Russian winter, stretching from Arshavin to Zavarov, but the much more interesting question is why?

Sheer culture shock has definitely been part of the story historically, though the environmental differences between "Russia" and "the West" have shrunk dramatically in recent years. The St. Petersburg that Arshavin left shares many of the same shops, trends and experiences as the London he moved to, and there are thousands of well-to-do Russians who have made a similar journey.

The same phenomenon exists in North American ice hockey, and while the list of successes in the NHL is longer, some of the flops have been just as striking. Hockey writers tend to attribute Russian players' difficulties to an inability to adapt to the much more physical game over here, as well rather stereotypical (though not completely inaccurate) evocations of Russians' particularly mawkish sense of mal du pays and a predilection for drowning one's sorrows in alcohol.

But there was also (and may still be) another factor that I've never heard spoken of in the football context, namely concerted extortion campaigns by Russian criminals (including the targeting of players' families back home). The strain of dealing with these threats effectively ended the career of Alexandyr Mogilny (the first Russian captain in the NHL) and has had a significant effect on a number of other players.

Has anyone heard similar stories about football? We all know about Belanov's troubles with the law in Germany, but those seemed to be grounded in a desire for a quick buck and deep familiarity with contraband culture.


I did not know the story about some Russian players being plagued by extortion problems from Russian criminals but frankly that does not surprise me.

There are exceptions to practically every rule and Kanchelskis, Karpin, Zavarov and Mostovoi are each examples I think of post Soviet era Russian players who went on to have succesful careers in western Europe. But I think in the end the reasons why the majority of Russian players who move to a foreign country do not achieve success are very similar to the reasons why many English players also do not have success when they leave their own country. And these are:

[1]a culture shock when leaving home due in large part to a culture which has traditionally been very insular; and

[2] the strong culture of drinking not just in the country itself but among its footballers. Thu for the most part they struggle with the discipline needed to succed in a foreign profesional environment.
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Santista
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The concept of saudade, missing one's culture and country is a strong one in Brasil and is a reason often given why some Brasilian star players, after initially doing well in Europe, eventually level off in their play. Much like the Russian and English players Pither mentioned, many Brasilians fell into the trap of drinking and partying at the expense of their professional careers and thus saw their level of play drop. Ronaldinho and Robinho are two recent examples of this so. I bring this up because I think the concept that only Russian or English players struggle to adapt to playing in a foreign country is not true. Many players from a wide variety of countries also have those difficulties. As someone who moved away from my native country and still suffers from saudade I know it is not always easy to adapt to a new culture, language and climate. And being in the public spotlight like footballers are probably would make it even worse.
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hobbes
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I think culture shock goes well beyond the shopping and pop culture. In dealing with Russian athletes I find that their English language skills lag far behind other European athletes. A Finnish kid I knew gave a lot of credit to the fact his TV show in his country were subtitled and not dubbed like they are in Russia and the Czech Rep. Still Czechs and Slovaks give the impression of being warmer, more open to smile and talk. I don't think it's that Russians are unfriendly, they just aren't as open with strangers. I think this leads to their teammates feeling that they're distant.

I was just talking to someone on the weekend who went to play hockey in Russia a year ago and they struggle to adapt and came back after a year. The on-ice stuff was the easiest transition, which given the massive difference in style of play and language is saying something. So I think it goes both ways too that players have a hard time adapting to playing in countries like Russia as much as they have trouble adapting to other places.

I've known a lot of exceptions too, but I think that has to play a bit of role in explaining it.

As far as the drinking, in the Soviet days, the players rarely got any days off. So when they did they hit the bottle and the bars hard. Insanely hard. So their idea of a day off is blackout drinking because they only got one every month or so. Then they go to the west and have an off day a week and suddenly their drinking is a real problem. But I think that mentality has changed. Certainly there is a culture of drinking there, but I don't think they're the only country like that. Certainly I would say there is a culture of heavy drinking in hockey (especially in the late teen years) that is problematic.

I do think that culture shock plays a large role.

cheers,
hobbes
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Merengue
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An excellent topic for discussion and I think it deserves it's own thread rather than being in the History discussion.

It is always hard to generalize and Mr Pither provided us with examples of Russian players who were successful in western Europe but it does seem from a distance that Russian players disproportionately strugle away from home. the reasons Mr Pither gave sound perfectly plausible to me but i am not certain they completely describe Russians' failure to adapt. hobbes' personal experience with Russian hockey players is fascinating to read. I especially was drawn to his description of them being distant to strangers, especially in comparison to other eastern and northern European hockey players. If this trait is common among Russian footballers too then that would also help explain why they have trouble adapting to foreign cultures. And an inability to grasp the langauge of where they play is another factor which would inhibit them. That language difficulty often is cited as a reason why many English players have trouble adapting to a foreign league.

There always are exceptions and Steve McManaman, who won several Champions Leagues at Real Madrid, was one of those exceptions as his ability to adapt was lauded because he quickly learned the language. Compare that to Ian Rush or Paul Gascoigne who went to Italy and probably returned home being lucky if they could order a meal in a restaurant in Italian! And not surprisingly each failed to make a significant impact during their foreign journey.
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ursus arctos
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Thanks, Merengue, for starting a new thread. I'm pleased to see that the question has incited interest, and especially pleased that hobbes posted, as I knew that he would be personally familiar with the situation in hockey.

One of the posters on the OTF thread has noted the degree to which Soviet players generally played to highly rigourous systems in which they had been trained since a very early age, with Lobanovski's Dynamo Kiev teams being the most famous example. It's quite easy for me to see how players who "grew up" in that kind of system would struggle when placed into a team that plays the game very differently, and with teammates who react differently to situations and fail to share the "automatisms" that come from years of familiarity. When you add the cultural issues that a number of posters have noted (to which one could add the Soviet emphasis on the collective over the individual) to these "professional" ones, perhaps the question should be why some Russians have succeeded.

And to that question, the same OTF poster noted that the most successful Russians in Serie A both played for Zeman's Foggia, which also played to a rigourous system (as well as having a Central European coach who spoke some Russian).
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enganche
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Quote:
 
One of the posters on the OTF thread has noted the degree to which Soviet players generally played to highly rigourous systems in which they had been trained since a very early age, with Lobanovski's Dynamo Kiev teams being the most famous example. It's quite easy for me to see how players who "grew up" in that kind of system would struggle when placed into a team that plays the game very differently, and with teammates who react differently to situations and fail to share the "automatisms" that come from years of familiarity. When you add the cultural issues that a number of posters have noted (to which one could add the Soviet emphasis on the collective over the individual) to these "professional" ones, perhaps the question should be why some Russians have succeeded.


The fact Soviet era players were trained in "rigorous" systems may help explain why some players who moved West just after the fall of the Soviet Union might have had trouble adapting but it does not in my mind explain why more recent Russian players have struggled to do the same as they were not trained under the Soviet sytem (hard to believe isn't it but there are now professional players from Russia who were born after the USSR ceased to exist!)

I think the reasons Pither, hobbes and Merengue gave for why Russian players generally have not adapted well to foreign leagues answers the question ursus posed in the initial post. And as hobbes notes it applies the other way around too, it is difficult for foreign players, especially those from cultures vastly different to the Russian (namely Argentinian, Brazilian, various African) to adapt to playing there too. Language and cultural barriers can be hard to overcome particularly when the language and culture differ so vastly to what you are accustomed.

If Zeman had success coaching Russian players while at Foggia then I think this further backs up my point. He spoke some of their language and came from a somewhat similar cultural background thus making it easier for him to relate to his Russian players and vice versa. This then made it easier for those players to achieve success playing for Zeman. I think that more than playing a "rigorous" system explains why they succeeded at Foggia.
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shelsoccer
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As someone who has spent time in Russia and has two adopted Russian sons, you guys are decribing an age-old condundrum about Russia.

It's a culture that is torn between east and west. It's never decided which side it comes down on or belongs to. Peter the Great tried to shift Russia westward. Subsequent regimes, both czarist and communist, pulled back the other way or at least tried to carve out a middle ground.

Russians have a hard time dealing with an open, free-wheeling, capitalist society --at least without turning to corruption. They've spent centuries living under autocratic rule, essentially being told what to do and not having to think for themselves.

This isn't a blanket statement. Plenty of Russians have immigrated to the west and succeeded. However, the majority of Russians yearn for structure and have a difficult time dealing with total liberty and self-sufficiency.
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raconteur
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Here is a question for those of you who know more about Russian and other Eastern European cultures than I do, do the factors mentioned here of why Russian players have generally failed to do well in Western Europe also apply to Ukrainian players? Andrei Shevchenko obviously achieved a lot of success outside of the Ukraine, especially in his first spell at Milan. Then of course he also was one of the best players in the world when he was in his prime. I remember his forward partner at Dynamo Kiev, Sergei Rebrov who while not as good as Sheva looked like a can't miss prospect either but he struggled playing for Tottenham and a few other European clubs before eventually returning home. Andrei Voronin at Liverpool and Bayer Leverkusen played without much glory either. More recently there was the centerback from Shakhtar Donetsk whose name is now escaping me, who Barcelona bought for millions of euros but who ended up shipping him back to Donetsk after only one year. Really only Shevchenko, who was an exceptional talent, achieved much success outside of his homeland amongst Ukrainians.

So do the factors cited as effecting Russian players also pertain to these Ukrainians?
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vince stravino
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Ukraine probably suffers from what many of the Soviet-bloc republics are dealing with as far as youth develpment in futbol and other sports. The breakdown of the Mother State led to independent countries now having to re-organize their federations and developmental programs. Its been about twenty years and one lost generation of players for a majority of these countries. The organized countries will emerge as powers and the ones who are not with plan will flounder.
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ursus arctos
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Ukraine also suffers from rampant corruption and the nefarious influence of oligarchs who control the country's most important teams and tend to favor "ready made" imports over developing young players. Shakhtar Donetsk are the poster children for this particular phenomenon, with a first team squad that features eight Brazilians (not including Eduardo, who has been granted Croatian nationality).

It's also worth noting that Lobanovski's Dynamo Kiev teams, which produced most of the prominent early Soviet "exports" to the West (virtually all of whom failed, some spectacularly) was predominantly ethnically Ukrainian.
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Rufus T. Firefly
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Quote:
 
the reasons Mr Pither gave sound perfectly plausible to me but i am not certain they completely describe Russians' failure to adapt. hobbes' personal experience with Russian hockey players is fascinating to read. I especially was drawn to his description of them being distant to strangers, especially in comparison to other eastern and northern European hockey players. If this trait is common among Russian footballers too then that would also help explain why they have trouble adapting to foreign cultures. And an inability to grasp the langauge of where they play is another factor which would inhibit them. That language difficulty often is cited as a reason why many English players have trouble adapting to a foreign league.


An interesting topic, so it seems that the majority view expressed here is that a general inability of Russian and probably Ukrainian players to integrate into a new culture has prevented them from achieving success in foreign leagues. The other factors given here, coming from an overly structured playing background in their home country, a tendency to drink too much it seems to me have become secondary to the concept that these players in general just do not integrate easily into a new culture with different customs.

I found it revealing though to read what two South American posters noted here about how this is hardly a unique phenomenon to Russian and Ukrainians as many South American players have over the years also struggled adapting to leagues where the culture is vastly different from their own. Again we must caution that these are not universal statements but certainly when applying to players leaving Russia to play elsewhere, or those coming there from different cultures to play there, this societal gap makes it hard to adapt. An intriguing topic to discuss.
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libero
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Quote:
 
An interesting topic, so it seems that the majority view expressed here is that a general inability of Russian and probably Ukrainian players to integrate into a new culture has prevented them from achieving success in foreign leagues. The other factors given here, coming from an overly structured playing background in their home country, a tendency to drink too much it seems to me have become secondary to the concept that these players in general just do not integrate easily into a new culture with different customs.


I am a little late to this discussion but the above would be my opinion on the topic at hand. Those who keep to themselves and have trouble adapting to a new language are often going to struggle adapting to a new country whether they are a professional footballer or a window washer.
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hobbes
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ursus arctos,Dec 5 2011
05:04 PM
Thanks, Merengue, for starting a new thread.  I'm pleased to see that the question has incited interest, and especially pleased that hobbes posted, as I knew that he would be personally familiar with the situation in hockey.

I think every person is different, but in dealing with first hand or hearing second about different Russian players in hockey, I think some trends emerge that make sense.

Of the two Russian players I dealt with extensively personally, both failed miserably here. One seemed talented enough, but also seemed miserable. He's had a very good pro career at home, so I don't doubt the talent was there, but he was clearly home sick and beyond the language and culture shock problems, he moved to a small town from Moscow and that had to be a massive shock period. The other has not been successful and was in a very tough position here. He wasn't here long, but I'm sympathetic, but a combination of language problems, drinking and being easily (mis)led got him in trouble.

But it's tough to generalize. Semyon Varlamov (who plays for Colorado in the NHL) showed up at the NHL scouting combine in a white t-shirt, jeans and a gold chain instead of a suit. He acted like a hard man and would barely answer the questions of the NHL scouts and GMs in interviews. The Russian translator said that he felt Semyon was trying to act like he wasn't intimidated. It was like he was in the principal's office. In the last year or so his English is finally improving and he's begun to improve his reputation and has become a pretty decent NHL goalie.

A few weeks ago I talked to the Russian U20 goalie Andrey Makarov and his English was okay, but not great. But he was warm, keen to understand and be understood. He was quick to laugh and always smiling. Comparable talents, same position, same sport, only a few years apart and totally different personalities at the age of 18.

I read the OTF discussion and while I think the idea that all Soviet athletes were on steroids laughable, I think it's accepted that one of the reasons Vladimir Krutov fell off so quickly because his body was worn down by steroid use. He wouldn't have succeeded in North America anyway (he literally ate McDonalds every day his first year in Canada and put on a staggering amount of weight and he drank). But he was the only member of the Green Unit that has ever been alleged of using drugs. He was the strongest and stockiest 5-9 guy I've ever seen.

I think most former-Soviet states are still relatively similar when it comes to their players trying to adapt, but I think that will change. I spoke to someone who played in Belarus and they said the lifestyle there and the people made for an easier transition than they had heard players in Russia had made. Just as I think a rural kid will settle better in the midwest than New York, I can see why they'd like Belarus more than St. Petersberg.

I think it's interesting that in soccer the Russians aren't used to having the freedom that they get with their foreign clubs. It's sort of the opposite in hockey. While the Soviet system had more structure, the North American game now has more structure and system play. Russian players (and Europeans in general) have trouble adapting to playing without the puck and making smart, safe decisions predicated on reading defences rather than trying to make riskier plays.

cheers,
hobbes
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ursus arctos
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I do wonder if the "culture shock" effect is lessening with time, at least with regard to players from Moscow or St. Petersburg.

Given that the Soviet Union dissolved before he was born, an 18 year old who grew up in either of those cities would find "Western" life much less alien than his 38 year old counterpart.

Though hobbes' tale of the Muscovite in rural Canada demonstrates another type of culture shock that I find it easy to relate to, given that I'm sure that I would have been completely out of sorts if I had traveled thousands of miles from home to play junior hockey in a small town in Western Canada.
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