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Good Club Player, Bad With National Team
Topic Started: Oct 25 2011, 03:36 PM (336 Views)
libero
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I opened this thread to discuss players who starred for their clubs but for whatever reason never hit it off as national team players. I am thinking these could fall into two categories,

1] Players who never really got much of a chance with their national team, I am thinking of players who Onslow mentioned in another thread which is what got me starting this thread, Rodney Marsh and Stan Bowles, two English players from the 70s who were stars with their clubs but never really got a chance with their national team. Another English player who fits this description is Matt Le Tissier, a star with Southampton but who never did play much for England even though in his prime the team often were calling out for someone with is sort of skills.

2] Players who never replicated their club form with their national team. I think this really applies to Gianfranco Zola who played some for Italy but never as much as you would expect for a player of his talent. When he did play he rarely replicated his club form. Of course he also was hampered by having his career run parallel first to Roberto Baggio's then Alessandro Del Piero's, two players who essentially played the same position as he and who ended up depriving Zola of more opportunities with the Azzurri.

I am sure we can collectively come up with many more.
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enganche
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Here is a discussion we had on page 4 of the League History & idols thread in the Argentina forum,

http://z8.invisionfree.com/Soccer_Futbol_F...wtopic=92&st=45

And some quotes from both myself and xeneize talking about two great club players from Argentina in the 1970s and 80s, Ricardo Bochini and Norberto Alonso who never really made much of an impact with Argentina's national team.

xeneize
 
enganche
 
But both Bochini and Alonso were unlucky throughout their great careers that neither had much of a role with the national team as later in their careers they were overshadowed by Maradona and earlier in the careers, the national coaches preferred other, less talented players. Still both became World Cup champions, Alonso in 1978 and Bochini in 1986 although both times they were reserves on those World Cup winning teams.


No question Bochini and Alonso were great players, I think they didn't have as big a role on the national team because first Menotti preferred playing Mario Kempes as a deep lying forward media punta leading up to and at World Cup 1978. By doing so there wasn't really room in Menotti's eyes for a traditional playmaker and thus a traditional "8" like Osvaldo Ardiles and a defensive midfielder like Americo Gallego were played behind Kempes while two wingers like Bertoni and Ortiz/Houseman were played out wide. Thus in 1978 Alonso was on the World Cup team but primarily was used as a substitute and due to injury he didn't see as much playing time as his talents would have suggested.

And post 1978, Diego Maradona of course was the team's playmaker so again neither Bochini nor Alonso were first choice on the national team. Bochini, who was Maradona's idol, was a sub on the 1986 team as enganche said but only saw action late in the semifinal against Belgium. But as he entered Maradona famously told him, "Go to work maestro!"

But even without much national team play both Bochini and Alonso were fantastic players who won many national and continental titles in their careers. They were two magical players.


Ricardo Bochini remains my favorite footballer of all time and he is the maximum idol at my club Independiente. Both Bochini and Alonso would I think fit into the category of not getting much of a chance with the national team, first due to tactical reasons, as xeneize describes in the quoted section, and then because of the presence of another even more outstanding player, Diego Maradona, who played the same position.

Bochini and Alonso I think are the exact definition of players described by the thread starter.
Prefiero morir de pie que vivir arrodillado
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Sporting
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Ryan Giggs, maybe? Though if you're a good player in a very average or mediocre national team, you have your work cut out to shine.
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robdog
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Is it too early to include Messi here?? What about George Best??? Granted he didn't play for real footballing power, but there is one name. Another name could be David Ginola. I know a couple of French fans that hiss when they hear that name. I thought he was good at Newcastle & at Spurs.
Supporter for FCK, San Lorenzo, Chelsea, Pachuca, Corinthians & Real Betis
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Sammy Maudlin
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Sporting,Oct 26 2011
05:19 AM
Ryan Giggs, maybe? Though if you're a good player in a very average or mediocre national team, you have your work cut out to shine.

I do not know enough about Giggs career with Wales to comment on this. Sporting makes a good point though about good players on mediocre national teams having difficulty standing out. robdog brought up anther Manchester United winger, Ggeorge Best, how did he do with Northern Ireland? Of course it was a shorter period, due to his off field excesses, but Best had an even larger impact at Manchester United than Giggs. But neither got a sniff at either a World or European Nations Cup with their respective national teams.

George Weah was another star who played with a small country and never got the chance to play in a World Cup. Maybe those who follow African football closer than I can comment in more detail but my understanding was he was pretty good with Liberia's national team.
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Sporting
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Eric Cantona is another player who comes to mind.
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Don Balon
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Sporting,Oct 26 2011
09:07 PM
Eric Cantona is another player who comes to mind.

That whole generation of French players which followed the Platini era and preceeded the Zidane era was full of talented players who never really cut it at the national level despite having excellent club careers: Cantona, Ginola, Papin and Boli all come to my mind.
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Martin
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All good suggestions, except sorry robdog, Messi. While not yet achieving the success at the national team level he has with his club, he has not been a bad player for Argentina, and at 24 he has many years ahead of him.

I am with Sammy in thinking George Weah also does not belong in this category as he did play well for Liberia, helping them to several Nations Cup tournaments and nearly qualifying for a World Cup, I believe it was in qualifying for 1998 (hopefully Supereagle can confirm this.) Nigeria needed a last game win to edge Liberia out of the World Cup. Not bad for a country which never came close before or since Weah'e era.

Here is another player who I think falls into the category of this thread, Djalminha. A talented attacking midfielder he was a key player in Deportivo La Coruna's success in the 90's through the mid 00's but he rarely got a game with Brazil. Of course he faced a lot of competition there, first from Rai then later in his career from Rivaldo and Ronaldinho. But the left footed Djalminha was a skillful player who just never really made it with Brazil.

Another is one of my favorite players and a guy just now ending his career in Mexico, the Chilean Rodrigo "El Pony" Ruiz. Built like a fire plug, he would remind you of a cartoon character as his legs would get going and practically look like a cartoon spinning wheel run. He was quick and extremely skillful, one of the most technically proficient players that few people outside of Mexico or Chile ever heard of. He could strike a ball well with either foot or send a 35 yard pass right to a teammate's foot.

For about 15 years he has been a mainstay with a variety of Mexican clubs but rarely made an impact with Chile's national team. That is too bad because I always thought he could have been the perfect provider for Chile in the late 90's, early 00's when they had Ivan Zamorano and Marcelo Salas at forward.
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