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| 2010 men's Olympic hockey tournament | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 8 2010, 04:45 PM (2,583 Views) | |
| ursus arctos | Feb 25 2010, 08:31 AM Post #61 |
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I'm also not an expert on Czech hockey, but believe that football/hockey crossover was reasonably common, especially in 50s and 60s, before each of the sports became more "professional" (within the context of the Warsaw Pact system). I do know that Pavel Nedved (formerly of Juventus and Lazio) was a serious hockey player before concentrating on football (he even provided colour commentary (in Italian) on hockey for the Torino Olympics, and somewhere in the back of my head is the idea that Vaclav Nedomansky (another very early Czechoslovak defector that only hobbes will have heard of) was once a serious football player. As bandy can be summarized as hockey with a ball on a frozen football sized pitch, with football sized teams, essentially no checking (no boards, per se) and larger (though not quite football sized) goals, it is easy to see how players who excelled in one sport would gravitate to the other when climatic conditions made it impossible to play their favoured game. |
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| Yogi | Feb 25 2010, 09:20 AM Post #62 |
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Great reading, many thanks for the story of crossover soccer-hockey players, and for the history of Soviet hockey. About Brodeur's and Luongo's fathers knowing one another, on one of the broadcasts I watched a few days ago, the announcer said they were friendly and would often meet in a local bakery in Saint Leonard (thanks by the way for letting me know it is part of greater Montreal, here I was thinking it was some far flung town) I am surprised by Slovakia's upset of Sweden, I did not see that coming. That result, combined with the big win over Russia must be making many Canadians feel a lot better about their team's chances now. |
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| shelsoccer | Feb 25 2010, 09:33 AM Post #63 |
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Thanks here too for the history lesson, and congrats to Canada for their impressive victory last night. I was something of a hockey fan as a kid in the 1960s during the days of the original six and the first round of expansion, when the NHL was first shown on American network TV. I even played a little. Just one problem -- I couldn't skate for beans. Since, I've become more of a casual fan. I pay attention to the Olympics and the Stanley Cup, but that's about it. In my casual mode, I'm not familiar with "the cycle" or "cycling the puck." I take it that has something to do with moving the puck in the offensive end. Help me out, Hobbes. |
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| hobbes | Feb 25 2010, 08:20 PM Post #64 |
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shelsoccer: Much like soccer, hockey has definitely gotten more defensive and tactics have been brought in to curb creativity. Because of this fewer goals are scored off of the rush, so being good on the cycle is important. Basically cycling the puck involves your three forwards being strong along the boards and keeping the puck moving while holding possession. You use the boards to protect the puck and the goal is to keep possession until you can: make a pass in front, get a pass to an open defenceman on the point or beat your man and try to drive to the front of the net. Often the forwards “support the puck” by looking to win a loose puck from a teammate or take a small pass as he gets checked, the players then rotate which is where the term cycline comes from. Teams like Canada and Sweden do this quite well. Here’s a really short cycle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzilJFKtnt4 The first two guys are using the boards to protect the puck and moving despite being covered. The second guy with the puck is supporting and is down low to accept a pass along the wall. He rotates towards the open side and uses his speed to get a little room. The first guy with the puck goes to the net after making the pass, but is in position to take a reverse pass behind the net if need be. The guy that scores starts in the high slot, but drives to the net. Really that rotating to the net should just open a passing lane to the point, instead Buffalo takes away the pass to the point and lets him go free to the net for a far more dangerous chance. Having now watched this video three times, I just realized that it’s Nathan Paetsch who makes the mistake for Buffalo in that video. He’s one of the nicest kids I’ve ever dealt with professionally. Sorry Nate. FWIW most teams are using a 1-2-2 defensively when they cede the forecheck and Slovakia even dropped into a 1-4 delay against Sweden which is kind of fun since the Swedes are the pioneers of trapping hockey with the left-wing lock. Most of the real trapping teams (the Swedes, Swiss, the Czechs when leading) are gone. So this is kind of a positive foursome for attacking hockey. It’s also a positive foursome for direct, physical hockey, so maybe it’s not all good news for purists. cheers, hobbes |
| Saskatchewan for the CPL: multis e gentibus vires | |
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| hobbes | Feb 27 2010, 04:15 AM Post #65 |
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Holy bleeping bleep! I was trying not to look past the Slovaks and I knew they could be dangerous, but really I thought if Canada played well and scored early they’d be fine. Instead they nearly gas a late 3-0 lead and hang on for dear life against the Slovaks. Pavel Demitra who has became legendary in Vancouver this year for missing unmissable chances got robbed by his teammate Roberto Luongo at the side of the net with about six seconds left. Demitra had the whole net and hit part of Luongo’s glove. While shaking hands Demitra asked “How the bleep did you stop that bleeping save?” I’m not sure myself, but after Bobby Lou let one squeek by him near post to start the nerves he owed us one. A brief moment of love for the Saskatchewan boys who scored the three Canadian goals today. Now this is some small town business Yogi. Patrick Marleau from Aneroid (population 45) gets it going to open the scoring! Where’s Aneroid you ask? It’s in the southwest of the province about 30 mins east of Shaunavon (pop. 1,691 and home of Canadian women’s captain Hayley Wickenheiser) and about 30 mins north of Val Marie (pop. 137 and home of New York Islanders legend Bryan Trottier). Then Brendan Morrow got his second in two games after not scoring in first 27 appearances for his country. Morrow is from Carlyle (pop. 1,260). Finally the big city boy Ryan Getzlaf scored. Getzlaf is from my hometown of Regina, but he’s a north ender, which explains a lot, but he’s forgiven for a night at least.The U.S. had no such problems as Mikka Kiprusoff made a horrible, horrible mistake and the veteran, patient, composed Finns crumbled like a house of cards. I’ve never seen a Finnish team cave like that. It was amazing. They’re not overly skilled, but they usually battle for every inch and over-achieve. They were flat-out embarassed by an American team that is really rolling right now. Even Patrick Kane scored twice, just what they needed their actual skill players to start producing. If Phil Kessel gets going (and props to him for hustling to force Kipper into a pair of horrible choices that led to the goal) they’ll be terrifying. Neither semi was remotely what I was expecting and I have no idea what might happen in the final. The pressure looked to be getting to Canada in the late going. They seemed panicky. The Americans have looked loose this whole tournament. Miller’s out-playing Luongo. Neither team has gotten much production out of their big guns . . . Crosby is proving he’s not anywhere near being amongst the all-time greats at this point in his career, Nash and Iginla have been fairly average, Thornton’s reputation as a guy who disappears when it matters is now etched in marble, Kessel hasn’t produced and Kane finally scored after the Finns game was in doubt. Will it countinue to be role guys who score? If Canada comes out like “gorillas out of a cage” as Ilya Bryzgalov put it, then I have trouble seeing anyone beat them, but they’re just not looking composed. In the late going it was Keith and Doughty running around panicking on the Canadian D. Everyone was over-compensating and trying to do everyone else’s job. Bergeron cost Canada the second goal and then lost a defensive draw (in theory the only reason why he should be on the ice) and then was torched in the corner and the Slovaks nearly scored after his horrible defensive error. It’s two pretty young teams. The Americans relative inexperience didn’t mean anything. The Finns were supposed to be grizzled and smart and composed and they soiled themselves. I’m not sure how I feel about karma, but the entire country feels like it went from “we just killed the Russians, it’s 3-0, we’re rolling, we want the Americans, it’s revenge time!” to “holyfreakingchrist that was close. *breathe* man we barely beat the Slovaks *breathe* the Americans pummeled Finalnd *breathe* Oh god we’re in trouble. We can’t lose to the Americans twice at home at the Olympics after losing the World Juniors to them at home seven weeks ago . . . can we? *starts hyperventilating*” in the span of about 20 minutes. Two things I think I know for sure: the first goal is massive. Teams scoring first are 26-2 in this tournament. And second the whole country is shutting down for three hours Sunday. And we’re not going to feel too good in the morning no matter what happens. A friend who is covering the Games emailed me with the subject header: ‘social order is hanging by a thread’ and sent a pic of a burnt out Vancouver police squad car after the 94 Stanley Cup riots that said “94 will be nothing if we lose Sunday.” Worth noting that there were about 50-70k in the street during the 94 riot. They’re expecting closer to 200,000 Sunday. Plus there could be another mass protest for the closing ceremonies as there was for the opening. I really have faith that the Olympic spirit will help keep people calm and the police liquor ban should help, but I’m a little nervous. cheers, hobbes |
| Saskatchewan for the CPL: multis e gentibus vires | |
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| raconteur | Feb 27 2010, 11:40 AM Post #66 |
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I turned the game off when it was 3-0 canada, what a shock to read how it ended. probably a acse of enrves, a shobbes notes, and letting the foot off the accelerator combined with some Slovak grit. I guess now we see why they upset Sweden in the quarters. The US offense has not been that great in my eyes until last night's blowout over Finland. But many a hockey team have ridden a hot goaltender to a championship, just ask the Czechs in 1998 with the Dominator. And right now Ryan Miller is red hot betwen the sticks. Should be a fascinating game. |
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| ursus arctos | Feb 28 2010, 03:01 PM Post #67 |
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Well deserved, Hobbes, and the perfect end to a great Olympics for a great country. Enjoy it. |
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| Yogi | Feb 28 2010, 03:07 PM Post #68 |
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Ditto. What a great game and Crosby who could have been the goat for missing the breakaway when it was 2-1 late in the 3rd period, ends up being the hero with the OT gold medal winning goal. |
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| hobbes | Feb 28 2010, 06:29 PM Post #69 |
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Thank you gentlemen. It was a great game. The U.S. showed great character and responded admirably to the only adversity they faced all tournament. It had to be Crosby. Kid does nothing all tournament and will now join Paul Henderson and Mario Lemieux as Canadian legends no matter what happens after this. Great final and a great tournament. It's been a pretty great games up here for us. Can't speak for anyone else, but we've had a great time. And for all of our golds, I might remember two of the bronzes just as much. ![]() Thanks for indulging me for two weeks. cheers, hobbes |
| Saskatchewan for the CPL: multis e gentibus vires | |
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| shelsoccer | Feb 28 2010, 07:06 PM Post #70 |
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Congrats, Hobbes. After a shaky start, both on and off the field of play, Canada had a stellar games. As I was watching the hockey final in OT and the puck came along the boards to Crosby, who moved it to Iginla and then broke for the net, I thought to myself, "Wouldn't it be ironic if Crosby, who has been a relative non-entity in these games, scores the gold-medal winner?" Of course, he did. There's a reason this kid is seen as special and now he's etched himself in Canadian lore. I also kept mulling over a soccer comparison. There's a different tenor, but in my mind similarities to the US-Mexico soccer rivalry. You have a nation whose identity is so closely linked to a sport, a sport they see as their national sport, vs. a neighbor that so often over-shadows them in many respects but doesn't hold the sport in the same semi-religious reverance. Losing at home with that kind of national pride at stake is almost unthinkable, a blow to the national psyche. Though Canada has lost to the US in various hockey tournaments on home ice, there was no comparison to the importance of this game and Team Canada delivered. Well done. |
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| Merengue | Feb 28 2010, 08:49 PM Post #71 |
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Well done to Canada, I watched the last part of the final period and the overtime and it was quite exciting even for a non hockey fan like myself. Before these Olympics I probably only knew the names of 3-4 current hockey players and Crosby was one of those whose name I would always see in the newspaper. As several mentioned, he had the potential to be Canada's villain after missing that breakaway but it was probably appropriate it was he who scored the game winner. I got a little tired of the US media trying to compare this team to the 1980 Miracle on Ice team, that was a group of amateurs upsetting the mighty Soviet Union, this was a group of highly rated US NHL players barely losing to Canada's even more highly rated group of NHL stars. My thanks to all for making this an interesting discussion thread, and a special thanks to hobbes for his great insight, it was much appreciated. |
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| alabastergremlin | Mar 1 2010, 01:23 PM Post #72 |
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I do not watch a lot of hockey. My hockey enjoyement usually starts and ends with the NHL playoffs and the Stanley Cup. However, I did watch both US/Canada games and those were the two best hockey games I remember watching short of a few of the old Red Wing/Avalanche series several years ago. Of course, I was pulling for the US but with nothing more than that at stake, I found myself more than pleased considering the level of entertainment. On a side note, hockey is generally the only "winter sport" that I ever watch. Although for whatever reason, I became fascinated with curling this year. I suppose it is due in large part to the fact that it seems to be similar to bowling in that it looks incredibly simple...as if I could play for a few months and be amazing at it. However, as I struggle to ever break 200 bowling, I imagine looks are deceiving and it is much much more complicated. Although, another selling point for curling is that appparently...chicks dig curling. |
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| Martin | Mar 1 2010, 10:40 PM Post #73 |
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That really was an exciting final and it looked like the US had the momentum going into OT after that late game tying goal. I don't know how it plays out in hockey but in soccer it seems that a team which scores a late game tying goal in a tournament, sending the game into overtime, does not usually do as well as the team which had relinquished the late lead. That seems counter intuitive, as momentum would seem to be on the side of the team tying the game up. But last night's hockey game was yet another example of the team which was scored upon at the end of regulation, coming back to win the game. Like Merengue, I did not know the names of many of these players before the tournament, but Crosby was one whose name I have been seeing these past several years. As hobbes noted, he will now go down in Canadian hockey history with that game winner but as others noted he very nearly was the goat with that missed breakaway. Sounds like he has the ability to be the player future Canadian national teams are built around. Is the US goalie Miller really that good or was he just on a hot streak in this tournament? He was superb in this competition. I don't know what it is but I just love watching international competitions in team sports, I would much rather watch an international tournament in baseball, basketball and hockey than those sports regular league play, including their playoffs. |
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| hobbes | Mar 2 2010, 03:25 PM Post #74 |
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I have to admit I yelled at the TV/Crosby when he tried to deke the referee and lost the puck seconds before he scored. I don’t know if it was the incessant Crosby love from the media that drove me crazy as much as his irrelevance, but he was not having a good tournament. Everything was framed in a Crosby context despite the fact that they were succeeding even if he was irrelevant. I didn’t think Crosby’s breakaway miss was that aggregious to be honest. He had the misfortune of being chased by Patrick Kane — one of the few guys that could catch him — and he never really got the puck on his forehand because of it. I don’t think he realized it was Kane either the way he chose to control the puck. Heatley’s miss at the side of the net in the third was an easier chance IMO. The guy that really excited me in this tournament was Toews. He was fantastic, showed a complete two-way game. He’s been a great international player at the youth level and was named Chicago’s captain at 20. He’s 21, Doughty’s 20 . . . there’s some good talent coming up for Sochi. The Canadians need a physical defenceman that can skate well. The kind of guy the US has in droves. The U.S. has a lot of good young talent too. They were thought to be too young this time around and had the most consistent tournament of any team. I don’t know if Miller is that good, but he is this year. He’s consistently very good and this season he’s been consistently great. He may win the NHL’s MVP award with Buffalo. Before the tournament started I said he was arguably the best goalie in the Games. There’s no argument now. It’s funny he was in a mini-slump the week before Vancouver and got pulled in one start. That’s all forgotten now. Martin> that’s an interesting theory about OT. I’ll have to think about it a bit. In the first two games of the 87 Canada Cup final the team that came from behind to force overtime lost the game. There may be something to that. I was trying to decide how great this game was. As far as plot and drama you couldn’t envision much better (maybe 72), but I didn’t think the actual game was anywhere near some of the truly great games. Game 2 of the 87 Canada Cup is my favourite . . . Soviets score with 1:04 left with Valeri Kamensky going coast to coast and scoring as he’s falling to his knees while being tackled by the last Canadian defender. Then after 30 minutes of overtime Mario Lemieux scored his third goal to win and keep Canada alive as Wayne Gretzky picked up his fifth assist of the night in what he considers the best performance of his career. Game 3 and Game 1 of that series, the 75 New Year’s eve game between CSKA Moscow and the Montreal Canadiens. That probably shows some bias, but I was trying to think of games where your jaw just dropped at the skill level on disaply and the passion involved and I struggled to come up with many NHL games that were like that. Maybe because the opportunity for them to elevate their game from the run of the mill to the transcendant is harder. alabastergremlin> curling is harder. I’d say it’s actually more like golf IMO than bowling. In some ways it’s harder than golf actually. It has the same need for calm nerves, repetition of movement and an awareness of weight and touch, but it’s the only sport I can think of where you can maniulate your shot after it leaves you. That gives you some leeway in a sense, but really at this highest level you have to throw it perfect and then read the ice properly and decide on the way down when to hold it and when to let it move and where it’s going to break the most on the ice. And sometimes you do everything perfect and it picks something and you’re screwed anyway. I find it interesting that a lot of Americans are digging curling. I’ve always liked it mostly because I like the strategy and despite having a long family history in the sport, I sucked at it and never curled much. The TV numbers for the final were crazy. 26.5 million Canadians (a full 80 per cent of the country) watched part of the game. I don’t know how they determine things like that since people were lining up at bars two hours before they opened just to get in. If every bar in the country was packed what are TV numbers based on? The game aired live in Canada on nine television networks in eight languages. I want to hear that goal call in Punjabi! In the U.S. Sunday’s game drew a higher overnight rating than every World Series game since 2004, every NBA Finals telecast since 1998, and every NCAA Men’s Basketball Final Four game since at least 98. NBC’s audience peaked at 34.8 million and drew an average viewership of 27.6 million. That’s the most for a hockey game since the 1980 gold medal game against Finland. Thankfully I missed the miracle comparisons. There’s absolutely no comparison. Excuse the thread drift . . . And I’m not trying to diminish what the Miracle on Ice team did, because it was an amazing feat, but I think the reality doesn’t necessarily matchs the perception. If anything time should have given a better perspective on the size of the upset, but instead it’s magnitude seems to have grown over time — as legendary feats tend to do. For some reason the U.S. team at the 1976 Canada Cup came up at work. That was the first best-on-best tournament held in the wake of the 72 Canada-Soviet series. The U.S. roster was comically bad. It was a who’s who of journeymen NHLers whose names are fun to recall (Pete LoPresti! Alan Hangsleben! Larry Pleau! Dean Talafous!). That 76 team full of NHL players was supremely less talented than the Miracle team. Just no one knew that in 1980. Ken Morrow was a top-four defenceman on the Stanley Cup champions five months after winning gold at Lake Placid. He won four Cups with the Isles. Neal Broten, Mike Ramsey and Dave Christian all played more than a 1,000 NHL games. All four were NHL all-stars. So was Mark Johnson. Seven members of the miracle team made the U.S.’s 81 Canada Cup team a year later (and another three were amongst the seven players cut), so there was a core group that were already amongst the best the U.S. had to offer a year later despite their youth. And guys like Morrow, Ramsey and Broten were amongst the best U.S. players ever produced even at their young ages in 1980. And despite being collegians, they weren’t that young. Most of the players were 21 or 22, but Morrow was 23. Everyone thinks of that team as these scrappy college guys and the new teams in a dream team kind of context, but some of the U.S. most talented players — Patrick Kane, Phil Kessel, Bobby Ryan, Erik Johnson and Jack Johnson — are all under-23. A lot of that 80 team were NHL-ready at the time of the Games and they proved it quickly. Broten had 98 points in his rookie season. I’m pretty sure that was a record for an American player in the NHL. The greatness of the feat is due to how good the Soviets were. They beat the NHL all-stars in the Challenge Cup in 1979 (winning the deciding Game 3 6-0). They would beat Canada 8-1 in the final of the 81 Canada Cup. The problem with the Soviets was two-fold. One was poor in-game management. Pulling Tretiak was a disasterous move both because he was the best goaltender in the world and also because psychologically it negetively affected the Soviets. More importantly Victor Tikhonov’s ego hurt Soviet hockey. He hated losing and so he used his influence to force players to play their club hockey for his CSKA Moscow team. Even a Latvian patriot like Helmut Balderis left Dynamo Riga for three years because Tikhonov was going to kick him off of the national team. So really CSKA was the Soviet national team, which helps the players know each other (the American’s extensive exhibition schedule gave them a leg up over other countries, they played 50-some games together), but it meant CSKA never got tested. The Soviets weren’t used to playing in close games or pressure games. They rarely had to battle back or knew how to deal with adversity. And when they faced it in Lake Placid they didn’t deal well. Having their elder statesman and star player benched probably didn’t help anything. So while the current US team was nothing like the Miracle on Ice team (nor was the tournament), the Miracle team wasn’t really as sizable underdogs as they’re made out to be — at least not compared to the rest of the field except the Soviets. They were probably the second most talented team there and they were at home. The forgotten team — the 60 Squaw Valley team — are probably more unlikely. The Soviet team in 60 doesn’t compare to 80, but the Canadians were still a dominant force. This was an era when Canada won five of the first six gold medals and were still relevant at the Olympics. The US win in 60 interupted the Soviets’ string of wins over six Olympics (again halted in 80 before they won in 84, 88 and 92). And these guys were collegians who weren’t NHLers in wait. cheers, hobbes |
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| ursus arctos | Mar 2 2010, 03:57 PM Post #75 |
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So much there (as always), but I just wanted to agree with you (again) about there having been better games between Canada and the USSR (and between CSKA and the Habs). A lot of that has to do with the sheer quality of the Soviet/CSKA team of that era and the relatively revolutionary way they played, which is difficult to convey to someone who didn't watch those games live. It is a far from perfect comparison, but try to imagine what it would have been like to watch Holland '74 or Hungary '53 for the first time, having only ever seen Third Division English football (or what passed for top level North American football) at the time. Another important factor for me is ice size. As great as this tournament was, it would have been even more spectacular if it had been played on international-size rinks. It's also my (very. very hazy) recollection that the quality of the ice in the Soviet rinks at the time was better than what we saw at GM Place, which simply couldn't keep up with the volume of games played over a short period of time (and in relatively warm ambient temperatures). As a result, the Olympic players were constantly having to deal with unpredictably bouncing and rolling pucks. You're also spot on about the focus on Crosby, and I have to say that I expected better from the Canadian hockey media. It's easy to understand why NBC and the US media focussed on the marquee matchup, but I expected more hobbes-quality reporting from the likes of CTV and the Globe and Mail. |
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Patrick Marleau from Aneroid (population 45) gets it going to open the scoring! Where’s Aneroid you ask? It’s in the southwest of the province about 30 mins east of Shaunavon (pop. 1,691 and home of Canadian women’s captain Hayley Wickenheiser) and about 30 mins north of Val Marie (pop. 137 and home of New York Islanders legend Bryan Trottier). Then Brendan Morrow got his second in two games after not scoring in first 27 appearances for his country. Morrow is from Carlyle (pop. 1,260). Finally the big city boy Ryan Getzlaf scored. Getzlaf is from my hometown of Regina, but he’s a north ender, which explains a lot, but he’s forgiven for a night at least.
6:22 AM Jul 11