Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Soccer Futbol Forum. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Maximum number of foreign players?; During the 1970s/80s?
Topic Started: Jan 3 2010, 05:16 AM (2,652 Views)
Gregoriak
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Perhaps someone can shed some light on this. I always thought the maximum was 3 foreign players in the 1970s/80s, but look at Belgian clubs:

In the 1976 Cup Winners Cup final, Anderlecht started with 4 non-Belgian players: Robbie Rensenbrink, Arie Haan, Jan Ruiter and Peter Ressel (all Dutch). The same players also played in the 1977 final for Anderlecht (they even had a fifth one coming on as a sub in Ronny van Poucke, who came in for a Belgian player).

In 1978 in the Cup Winners Cup final vs. Austria Vienna, they had no less than 5 non-Belgian players in the starting XI: Robbie Rensenbrink, Nico de Bree, Johnny Dusbaba, Arie Haan (all Dutch) and Benny Nielsen (Danish).

Also in 1978 (Champions Cup final), FC Brugge had 4 non-Belgians on the pitch: Jan Sörensen, Birger Jensen (both Danish), Lajos Kü (Hungarian) and Edi Krieger (Austrian).

In 1982, Standard Lierse had 4 non-Belgians in the starting XI of the CWC final: Benny Wendt (Sweden), Arie Haan, Simon Tahamata (both Dutch) and René Botteron (Swiss).

In the 1983 UEFA Cup final vs. Benfica, they had 7 non-Belgians in the first final: Morten Olsen, Kenneth Brylle-Larsen, Frank Arnesen, Per Friman (all Danish), Wim Hofkens (Dutch), Luka Peruzovic (Yugoslavian) and Juan Lozano (Spanish).

How was that possible? I think Lozano might have been naturalized at that time, but that still leaves 6 non-Belgians in the starting lineup of the first game.

In 1988, KV Mechelen started with 5 non-Belgian players in the CWC final: Wim Hofkens, Graeme Rutjes, Erwin Koeman, Piet de Boer (all Dutch) and Eli Ohana (Israel).

Also in 1988, the Dutch club PSV Eindhoven had 4 non-Dutch in the starting XI of the Champions Cup final: Sören, Lerby, Jan Heintze, Ivan Nielsen (all Danish) and Eric Gerets (Belgian).

I know that British teams were allowed to field as many British players as they wanted to (English, Welsh, Northern Irish, Scottish) but continental teams during the 1970s and 1980s had to restrict themselves to fielding at least 8 domestic players.

Why the exception for Belgian clubs??

To me this is an unexplicable anomaly in European club football. The only answer might be, that there was no restriction by UEFA? Or some of the players were naturalized. But if there was no UEFA rule to follow, why then did even the Italian and Spanish clubs never field more than 3 non-domestic players?

Who knows the answer?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Manzanares
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Why the exception for Belgian clubs??

To me this is an unexplicable anomaly in European club football. The only answer might be, that there was no restriction by UEFA? Or some of the players were naturalized. But if there was no UEFA rule to follow, why then did even the Italian and Spanish clubs never field more than 3 non-domestic players?


You ask an intriguing question but one to which I do not have an exact answer. I will say, however, that even now there is no set UEFA standard for how many foreign players a particular league can permit. Obviously within the EU, all players with a EU passport can play without counting as a foreign player. But certain leagues, England and Belgium for example do not limit at all the amount of non EU players there teams can use. Thus you occasionally get situations were clubs like Arsenal or Beveren can field teams composed entirely of foreign players. In Spain, however, clubs are limited in the amount of non EU players they can use at a time.

This makes me think that even in the 80s, there was not a UEFA standard for 3 foreign players per team in any league. But Gregoriak's point is UEFA did have this limit in continental competitions and Belgian clubs used more than 3 foreigners per team. Puzzling but it makes me think these players were able to quickly obtain a Belgian passport thus giving the Belgian clubs the opportunity to like the English use more than 3 players from outside their federation at a time. This might explain why Belgian clubs in this era were relatively successful, remember Anderlecht were UEFA Cup winners and advanced to several other European finals while Bruges were European Cup runnerup one year. Something which now appears to be a fantasy for any Belgian club.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Merengue
Administrator
[ *  *  * ]
Hmm, an interesting question. I know for sure UEFA had a limitation on 3 foreign players per team before the EU ruling abolishing those limits. Remember in the early 90s when Stuttgart had to replay a Champions Cup/League game because they fielded more than 3 foreign players? So I am thinking the most reasonable explanation of these Belgian clubs using more than 3 non Belgians is that some of those players had obtained Belgian passports. I see the name of Juan Lozano, a Spanish player, on the list Gregoriak provided and I know that he had dual Spanish-Belgian citizenry.
http://twitter.com/#!/SocrFutbolForum
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Simon
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
This surprises me, as my memory is of the '3 foreigners rule' being first implemented in about 1992? Maybe that's from my British perspective, as I know that it was at that time that Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish players started to count as 'foreign'. United beat Barcelona in the ECWC Final in 1991 without any restrictions on who played. In subsequent years we used to have real selection headaches about who could play and who couldn't. The next time we played Barca we lost 4-0 in the Nou Camp and had some of our most important players in the stands, including Peter Schmeichel while a fellow named Gary Walsh was in goal!

I thought it was in place only for about five years until it was renounced as 'restraint of trade' in the light of the Bosman ruling. I also wasn't aware that modern restrictions are any different in England compared to elsewhere. I don't know whether English clubs have fielded that many non-EU players at once? Perhaps Chelsea or maybe Portsmouth with their African contingents? I can't say I've been keeping count!

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
raconteur
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Simon, I believe the 3 foreign player limit was always in effect in European matches except, as Gregoriak noted it was not enforced against English clubs who were allowed to use players from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and not have them count against the limit. It was not until the mid 90s I believe when UEFA, after pressure from other European federations, decided that English clubs could not have this "benefit" which was not available to clubs from other countries. Then once the Bosman ruling came into effect and the EU courts subsequently ruled there could not be a restriction on EU players within the Union, UEFA ended the limits on foreign players within their competitions.

But to attempt to answer Gregoriak's initial question, I believe these "foreign" players, or at least some of them, on the belgian clubs he listed had obtained Belgian citizenship, so that they would not count against the foreign player limit.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mr. Pither
Member Avatar
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
raconteur,Jan 5 2010
04:43 PM
Simon, I believe the 3 foreign player limit was always in effect in European matches except, as Gregoriak noted it was not enforced against English clubs who were allowed to use players from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and not have them count against the limit. It was not until the mid 90s I believe when UEFA, after pressure from other European federations, decided that English clubs could not have this "benefit" which was not available to clubs from other countries. Then once the Bosman ruling came into effect and the EU courts subsequently ruled there could not be a restriction on EU players within the Union, UEFA ended the limits on foreign players within their competitions.

But to attempt to answer Gregoriak's initial question, I believe these "foreign" players, or at least some of them, on the belgian clubs he listed had obtained Belgian citizenship, so that they would not count against the foreign player limit.

I think this view is correct and I would surmise there were more foreign born players than the then regualtions permitted at the time because some had obtained passports from the country where their club was located. I believe players from the Republic of Ireland on English clubs were also exempted from this 3 foreigners per club rule. Certainly the Liverpool sides of the mid 80s had many Irish players-Mark Lawrenson, Ronnie Whelan, Jim Beglin and Michael Robinson, although some of them, notably Lawrenson and Robinson were English born.
P-I-T-H-E-R ...as in Brotherhood, but with PI instead of the BRO and no HOOD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ursus arctos
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
My recollection of this matches Simon's.

The "3+2" (three foreigners plus two assimilated players) rule only came into effect in the early 90s. Prior to that time, the requirement was merely that a club be able to field the player in question in the relevant domestic competition, which meant that there was actually a wide range of practice.

Some countries (notably Italy pre-1980) banned foreigners entirely, while others (notably Belgium) were very open (as Gregoriak's examples show). England was a bit of a special case, as it had very restrictive rules on the granting of work permits, but didn't apply those to players from the other home nations (Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales) or the Republic of Ireland.

It actually took a while ar after the Bosman ruling for UEFA to repeal the "gentlemen's agreement", and they did so only in the face of active hostility and threats of legal action from the European Commission.

Here's an article from the Independent on the repeal: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/uefa-sc...ts-1320035.html

Some more background starting on pages 3 and 4 of an academic paper available here.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Yogi
Member Avatar
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Some interesting information here, the game which Stuttgart had to forfeit in the Champions League for exceeding the foreign player limit was in the inaugural Champions League in the 1992-3 season, so that would fit into what ursus wrote about when the "3+2 rule" came into effect. And perhaps it made sense that with the formation of the new Champions League UEFA then formulated this new rule limiting foreign players on the field at any time.

I am at work and unable to open that pdf file in the academic paper ursus linked does it give more background information on the rule or lack of one, by UEFA on foreign player restrictions pre 1992?

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Merengue
Administrator
[ *  *  * ]
ursus arctos,Jan 6 2010
09:39 AM
My recollection of this matches Simon's.

The "3+2" (three foreigners plus two assimilated players) rule only came into effect in the early 90s. Prior to that time, the requirement was merely that a club be able to field the player in question in the relevant domestic competition, which meant that there was actually a wide range of practice.

Some countries (notably Italy pre-1980) banned foreigners entirely, while others (notably Belgium) were very open (as Gregoriak's examples show). England was a bit of a special case, as it had very restrictive rules on the granting of work permits, but didn't apply those to players from the other home nations (Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales) or the Republic of Ireland.

It actually took a while ar after the Bosman ruling for UEFA to repeal the "gentlemen's agreement", and they did so only in the face of active hostility and threats of legal action from the European Commission.

Here's an article from the Independent on the repeal: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/uefa-sc...ts-1320035.html

Some more background starting on pages 3 and 4 of an academic paper available here.

Ok I appreciate the additional information and the links. I tried searching and just could not find anything on the net about a specific rule prior to the 1990s so Simon's and ursus' explanation makes sense. And the fact only Stuttgart in 1992 violated the "too many foreigners on the field rule" probably does signal that the rule only recently came into effect. There otherwise would likely have been some careless club who would have also violated that rule beforehand if one had existed!

Haha, how is that for proving something by showing the negative did not occur!
http://twitter.com/#!/SocrFutbolForum
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ursus arctos
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Yogi, not explicitly, as the paper's limited treatment of the earlier period is focussed on restrictions in domestic competitions. It does, however, expressly date the introduction of the "3+2" rule (which was also supposed to apply to domestic competitions within UEFA) to 1991.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ursus arctos
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Some additional indirect support for that position from the Bosman ruling itself:

Nationality clauses

25 From the 1960s onwards, many national football associations introduced rules ("nationality clauses") restricting the extent to which foreign players could be recruited or fielded in a match. For the purposes of those clauses, nationality is defined in relation to whether the player can be qualified to play in a country's national or representative team.

26 In 1978, UEFA gave an undertaking to Mr Davignon, a Member of the Commission of the European Communities, that it would remove the limitations on the number of contracts entered into by each club with players from other Member States and would set the number of such players who may participate in any one match at two, that limit not being applicable to players established for over five years in the Member State in question.

27 In 1991, following further discussions with Mr Bangemann, a Vice-President of the Commission, UEFA adopted the "3 + 2" rule permitting each national association to limit to three the number of foreign players whom a club may field in any first division match in their national championships, plus two players who have played in the country of the relevant national association for an uninterrupted period of five years, including three years as a junior. The same limitation also applies to UEFA matches in competitions for club teams.


To me, the last sentence of paragraph 27 (which I've put in bold) carries a strong implication that the nationality rules discussed in paragraphs 25 and 26 did NOT apply automatically in UEFA competitions, but rather had been adopted by some (but not necessarily all) of UEFA's national associations. The introductory language to paragraph 25, which refers to rules introduced by national associations also supports that reading.

I also don't believe that all of the examples that Gregoriak cites in the initial post could be explained by the "2 + five year players" rule described in paragraph 26. For example, looking at Anderlecht in the 1983 UEFA Cup Final, Arnesen only came to Belgium in 1983, Peruzovic in 1980 and Brylle Larsen in 1979 (Olsen and Hofkens had been in Belgium for five years by that time, Lozano was naturalized (and in fact played for Belgium) and I couldn't find detailed information on Friman). Similarly, of Mechelen's 1988 Cup Winners Cup team, Ohana arrived in 1987, and Rutjes and Koeman in 1985.

Each of those teams therefore fielded at least three players who hadn't spent five years in Belgium before the season in question.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Manzanares
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
I also don't believe that all of the examples that Gregoriak cites in the initial post could be explained by the "2 + five year players" rule described in paragraph 26. For example, looking at Anderlecht in the 1983 UEFA Cup Final, Arnesen only came to Belgium in 1983, Peruzovic in 1980 and Brylle Larsen in 1979 (Olsen and Hofkens had been in Belgium for five years by that time, Lozano was naturalized (and in fact played for Belgium) and I couldn't find detailed information on Friman). Similarly, of Mechelen's 1988 Cup Winners Cup team, Ohana arrived in 1987, and Rutjes and Koeman in 1985.

Each of those teams therefore fielded at least three players who hadn't spent five years in Belgium before the season in question.


Hmm, this gets more confusing as we gain more information here. So if I understand ursus' last post, then Gregoriak's initial question is either A] Still unanswerable or B] While UEFA may have imposed those restrictions listed in paragraph 26 of the Bosman ruling as quoted by ursus, for national associations, they did not impose foreign player limitations for European matches until 1991.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ursus arctos
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Not quite.

My reading is that UEFA didn't impose the "2 + five year players" restrictions on national associations, but rather undertook to the European Commission in 1978 that they would try to ensure that none of their national associations applied nationality clauses that were MORE restrictive than "2 + five year players".

The fact that Italy got rid of its complete ban on foreigners in 1980 provides some indirect support for that view (UEFA were known for dragging their feet in this respect).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Merengue
Administrator
[ *  *  * ]
Very good work ursus in tracking this information down and trying to interpret the "legalese." So to try to answer the questions posed by Gregoriak, where are we? That prior to 1991 there was no UEFA restriction on foreign players in European competitions and that each national association could set it's own foreign player restrictions but with UEFA post 1978 "suggesting" to the European FA's that they could not be more restrictive than the "2 + five years?"

I was reading Mr. Pither's post with interest and am curious as he is as to whether Republic of Ireland players were treated as foreign players in England? Looking at the lineup Liverpool used in the tragic Heysel Stadium Final of 1985, they only had 2 English players in their starting lineup-Phil Neal and Paul Walsh, with Walsh being substituted at the half by another English player Craig Johnston. There were three Irish Republic players in the Liverpool team that day-Mark Lawrenson, Jim Beglin and Ronnie Whelan. In addition there also was the Zimbabwe born Bruce Grobbelaar in goal. The remainder of the starting team were Scottish and Welsh players which we already know were not considered to be foreign players in the English league.

Mark Lawrenson as Pither described was English born but represented Ireland internationally, so would he have counted as a foreign player since by representing Ireland he could not have ever played for England? Or because he had a UK passport would he not have been considered a foreign player? Of course if Republic of Ireland players were given the same considerations as those from Northern Irleand, Scotland and Wales then this would all be immaterial.

I guess my point is this Liverpool example appears to further the point Simon and ursus have put forward that there were no restrictions on foreign players in UEFA competitions prior to 1991.
http://twitter.com/#!/SocrFutbolForum
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ursus arctos
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
My recollection (but it is only that) is that Republic of Ireland players were not subject to the stringent work permit requirements that the British immigration authorities applied to other "foreign" players at the time. In part, that recollection is based on the fact that many Irish-born Irish players (Brady, Stapleton) began their careers in England as schoolboys; Whelan was also only 17 when he joined Liverpool.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
« Previous Topic · UEFA · Next Topic »
Add Reply