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| Trivia on the 1966 World Cup | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 28 2009, 01:12 PM (772 Views) | |
| Simon | Jan 6 2010, 08:19 AM Post #16 |
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Oh yes, I reckon the St. George's Cross replaced the Union Flag at Euro 96. I remember being struck by the novelty of seeing all the 'England' flags ahead of the opening match against Switzerland. |
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| Martin | Jan 6 2010, 09:49 AM Post #17 |
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That sounds like Garrincha, he was definitely an offbeat character. The fact he died penniless and an alcoholic was a sad way for one of the greatest players of all time to have his life end. With Pele injured it was Garrincha who literally carried Brazil to the 1962 World Cup title. I have read where some commentators have said only Maradona in 1986 had as individually as dominant a performance throughout a World Cup as Garrincha had in 1962. Which to bring up some much more recent history is why I was so bittered about Zidane's headbutt and subsequent sending off in the last World Cup Final. His play in the group stage may not have been spectacular but few could have doubted once the knockout stages began how much influence Zidane had in carrying France to the final where he again was playing well, scoring a Panenka-like penalty then forcing Buffon into one of the best saves I have ever seen to deny him a 2nd half headed goal. But he threw that all away with his subsequent expulsion. Back to 1966, I found this German language video on youtube of highlights from 1966, and it has at the 5:55 mark the foul on Charlton which led to the German free kick which became their late game tying goal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaG-nEDKKIk&feature=related You might be able to argue that the German did not jump but Charlton also did not give him the opportunity by climbing over his back. I would have whistled that a foul by Charlton. I do not understand German but I found the German announcer on this video pretty funny when he would shout, "Achtung!" whenever there was some danger near the German goal. Actually watching this video you can see how slack the German marking was on each of England's goals. The last minute 4th goal you can excuse because they had everyone pushing forward looking for the tying goal and in minute 119 they had no legs left to get back and defend but note how much space each English player had when they scored their other three goals in this game. A question for the German speakers out there, I always thought "Tor" was goal in German but it sounds to me like the announcer says "Goal". Am I correct here? Anyway this is all ancient history but still enjoyable to discuss even 44 years later! |
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| Simon | Jan 7 2010, 05:17 AM Post #18 |
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Hmm, back in 1966 free-kicks were barely ever given in such 50-50s and it's always looked to me like the German forward (was it Sigi Held?) was backing in. It is funny though how discussion gets slanted as refereeing norms change over time. Perhaps these days a free-kick would be more likely given? A notable other example I can think of comes from the 1985 FA Cup Final between Manchester United and Everton. United's Kevin Moran went in for a tough challenge and gave away a free kick. Then, to everyone's disbelief, he was shown a red card and thus became the first player ever to be sent off in a Cup Final. The burning sense of injustice helped United to eventually win the game, and afterwards even the Everton players agreed with the universal consensus that it should never have been a red card, and they regretted the decision because it fired United up so much. Of course, when you see it now from a 2010 perspective you automatically wince and think 'red card' while the commentator is saying "Moran was a bit late there, he could be booked for that" The commentator definitely does say 'goal', perhaps he's just being cosmopolitan as you're definitely right about 'tor'. If you listen to the immediate aftermath of Hurst's shot coming back off the bar, he says "nicht ein tor, kein tor" = "not a goal, no goal!" I've got the DVD of the game, and besides the different standards of marking, you're struck by the slow pace of the game as well. I've also got the classic Real Madrid-Eintracht game somewhere and again, it looks odd to the modern viewer to see the game played at walking pace and the German defence so wide open throughout the game! |
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| raconteur | Jan 7 2010, 10:49 PM Post #19 |
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I've got the DVD of the game, and besides the different standards of marking, you're struck by the slow pace of the game as well. I've also got the classic Real Madrid-Eintracht game somewhere and again, it looks odd to the modern viewer to see the game played at walking pace and the German defence so wide open throughout the game! I have the 1970 World Cup Final on tape and it is the same thing, the game is much more slower than what we see now and the time each team had on the ball is noticeably different from how the sport is now played. Little wonder then that if you gave Pele, Gerson and Rivelino so much time they will pick apart your defense. The 1982 World Cup I have on tape is a different story. That was played much more like at the pace we now have, the biggest differences being then teams could pass the ball back to the goalkeeper with their feet which provided an outlet for under pressure defenders and somehow I do not think Claudio Gentile would get away now with the amount and ferocity of the fouls he committed back in 1982 (much like Simon's recount of the fouling in the 1985 FA Cup Final.) |
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| Yogi | Jan 8 2010, 01:16 PM Post #20 |
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Claudio Gentile would not last a half in the current day if he played as he did in the 1982 World Cup! |
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| Gregoriak | Jan 9 2010, 06:20 AM Post #21 |
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I think this clip strongly hints at England's third goal not crossing the line: England scores third goal in 1966 |
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| Gregoriak | Jan 9 2010, 06:39 AM Post #22 |
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Actually if you watch the clip I posted above, you will see that German goalie Horst Tilkowski had the best view, because he was looking at the scene from a better angle. He said the ball was on the line, not over it. This is also supported by the clip. That Tilkowski had the best view can also be seen in this pic: ![]()
It wouldn't actually have been that easy for Hunt to score from that situation (again looking at the clip for support). Hunt later stated that himself. It was definitely far easier for him to turn away and celebrate a goal. And Hunt wasn't alone in front of the goal with a possibility of an easy tap in ahead of him - his marker Wolfgang Weber was also there, who eventually headed the ball over the goal.
Directly after the game the Soviet linesman Bakhramov stated that he had not seen the situation clearly enough to judge whether it was a goal or not however the cheer of the crowd and the immediate celebrations of the English players made him believe the ball had crossed the line. A very honest guy. Contrary to referee Dienst, who in later years always firmly claimed to have clearly seen that it had crossed the line, but he was too far away from it actually, because he lacked the fitness to follow the game during extra-time. |
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| Sporting | Jan 9 2010, 06:42 AM Post #23 |
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Some of the comments after suggest that the video has been faked, that the ball was closer to the centre of the goal than in this one, in which it's closer to the post. Who knows? I don't, though I suspect it wasn't a goal. |
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| Gregoriak | Jan 9 2010, 06:45 AM Post #24 |
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Indeed, that was definitely a cosmopolitan touch by the commentator, the recently deceased Rudi Michel. Due to the World Cup being played in England, he had grown used to adopt the English "goal". I'm pretty sure he would not have adopted the French "but" if the World Cup had been played in France, though. |
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| Gregoriak | Jan 9 2010, 06:48 AM Post #25 |
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What do you think about this clip? Wembley '66 |
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| Gregoriak | Jan 9 2010, 06:55 AM Post #26 |
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But the 1970 World Cup was a special case, as it was recommended to play slower due to the heat and the height of the location. That has to be taken into account when watching games from the 1970 WC. Players today would also play slower under such circumstances - just look at how badly England dealt with that hot day during the 2006 German World Cup, a heat they weren't used to and how they complained afterwards how that hindered them. |
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| Gregoriak | Jan 9 2010, 06:59 AM Post #27 |
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This clip deals with the 1966 final more laboriously - the part on Hurst's second goal starts on 7:10. 1966 Wembley Final At 7:40 it does not look like a goal. |
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| Yogi | Jan 9 2010, 09:08 AM Post #28 |
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nicht ein tor, kein tor! ![]() Good to see a game from almost 44 years ago can still stir the passions! I agree with an earlier poster who wrote this incident remains one of the most controversial moments in World Cup Finals history. |
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| Gregoriak | Jan 9 2010, 09:53 AM Post #29 |
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German manager Helmut Schön probably made three costly mistakes in the German lineup and the tactical setup in the final. They were: 1. Horst Höttges was added as the right back instead of Friedel Lutz, who played that part in the semi final vs. the Soviet Union. Höttges had played very well in the early rounds of the World Cup but then picked up an injury so that he missed the semi final. It looked as if he would miss the final as well, but since he had played so well earlier, Schön and the German coaching staff were keen on having him play in the final. Afterwards it looked like a costly mistake fielding a player that was not fully fit - after all it was Höttges who was set out to mark Geoff Hurst in the final and Höttges usually was a reliable marker but as we know Hurst scored three goals against him and especially the first one was Höttges' fault as he was nowhere close to Hurst when he headed the 1-1. There was no reason to replace Friedel Lutz with Horst Höttges for the final, as the Frankfurt player Lutz - who also played in the 1960 European Cup final - had done a good job in the semi final. Germany played with a 4-3-3 throughout the 1966 World Cup. In the final, Germany's 3 midfielders faced an England midfield of 4 players. Germany being undermanned in midfield could have been alleviated slightly if all of the 3 strikers had played well, but with Emmerich being useless, the situation became hopeless. 2. Keeping outside left Lothar Emmerich in the lineup instead of the more skillful Albert Brülls. Emmerich was a goal-hungry winger for Borussia Dortmund blessed with a very hard shot, however his technique was sub-par and he made many mistakes stopping the ball, thus giving passes away too easily. Emmerich was the top scorer of the Bundesliga in the 65-66 season with 31 goals and he also scored 14 goals in the Cup Winners Cup, which made him the darling of the tabloids. Helmut Schön relented to public pressure and added Emmerich to the 1966 German World Cup squad, but he had no intentions of actually letting him play in England. The left winger Albert Brülls did play in the first two games but then got injured. For the third game, the media pressured Schön to give Emmerich a chance in the game vs. Spain. Schön gave in and Emmerich scored one of the greatest goals of the 1966 World Cup. You can see that goal here: Emmerich Goal in '66 After he had scored that goal, the media and the public were of course thrilled and Schön faced the dilemma that he could hardly leave Emmerich out of the lineup for the coming games. Thus Emmerich remained in the team for the rest of the tournament, but his moment of glory was not to be repeated. Emmerich didn't prove to be too useful in the quarterfinal and the semi final. So Schön actually wanted to replace him with Brülls again, who had recovered from his injury. But Schön feared the wrath of the boulevard and thus Emmerich kept his place in the final, in which he was totally useless, giving balls away left and right. Schön later admitted that it was a mistake. 3. Assigning Franz Beckenbauer the task of marking Bobby Charlton. If you watch the final, it strikes out that the too most legendary players on the pitch actually do not stand out at all. Neither Charlton nor Beckenbauer have great scenes in that game. The reason is that both coaches picked their star players to shadow the other star player. Both did really well at that. From a German perspective, afterwards it became obvious that assigning a destructive marking job on a player of the creative potential of Franz Beckenbauer was a major cock-up. The German midfield in 1966 consisted of three players, and all three of them were playmaker types: Haller on the right, Beckenbauer at the center and Overath on the left. All three of them highly creative, technical players. There was no defensive midfielder in that midfield who was used to marking an opposing player, like England had in Nobby Stiles. While Beckenbauer did a good job shadowing Charlton, the offensive potential Germany gave away probably cost them dear. In all 5 previous games, Beckenbauer was one of the best players with lots of goals and scenes, as you can see in this compilation: Franz Beckenbauer 1966 Helmut Schön later conceded that this was a wrong decision as well. |
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| Gregoriak | Jan 9 2010, 10:07 AM Post #30 |
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Trivia question: The names of the referee Dienst and linesman Bakhramov are well known - but what was the name of the second linesman? |
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