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Champions League
Topic Started: Aug 1 2008, 07:30 AM (4,222 Views)
Sporting
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hobbes,May 30 2009
05:57 PM


I hope more quality sides try to commit to attack and play the ball on the ground as Spain and Barça do, but I think the number of teams that can actually attain it is pretty small.


I understand completely what you are saying and go along with the general praise for Barcelona.

What I don't agree with is the idea that good football is only played on the ground, and that balls played in the air somehow disqualify a team from greatness. Tell Pele that his first goal against Italy in the 1970 World Cup final was in some way ugly! And a million more examples!
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SuperEagle
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Johnbuildr,May 29 2009
04:37 AM
<<I think this game also showed the importance of an early goal to a match's outcome. If Barcelona does not get that 10th minute goal, would the game have changed much? Although Manchester United began the game on the attack, after the goal they were on their back foot for most of the rest of the game. >>

That is a very astute and interesting observation, Libero. I am late posting and won't try to add to the excellent analysis here, other than to say that as a fan with no horse in the race, I thought it was a very good game with an interesting phsychological flow, which Libero nailed spot on. Undeniable that the best team won.
The pre game talking heads almost guaranteed the match to ManU, which kind of mystified me given Barca's season. Then ManU came out and for all the world looked unstoppable and like they would steam roll their way to victory. I was thinking, well, maybe the commentators were all right.
Then, Barca scores on their first real run, a counter in which you do not often see a world class back, who was in good position by the way, get beaten so badly, and it was suddenly a different game for almost the entire rest of the match.
I don't know for sure, but there was certianly something about that early goal that pyschologically, and in reality, completely turned the match around.

And as an antithesis to the early goal changes everything view is what happeend in today's FA Cup Final (don't read ffurther if you do not know the score!), Everton scored after only a minute but rather than panic, Chelsea kept up with their inital game plan and gradually came inot the match eventually equalising and later winning the game. An early goal doe snot necessarily have to change the psychology of a game, it did not in the FA Cup Final but it certainly did in the Champions League Final.

What amazed me about the match in Rome is that Manchester United all season long have eben so psychologically strong but barca's goal and subsequent passing just took the fight out of them. Even Alex Ferguson on the sideline looked resigend to the fcat that United wer enot goin to win this one.

Full credit to Barcelona for their silky passing movements. It can be difficult to play a team like them as they have you chasing so much. Chelsea succeeded in frustrating and muscling them off the ball but I agree with those who remarked here how barca learned from that my not giving United the opportunity to do that by passing the ball around quicker.

And poor Ryan Giggs, after such a fine season, for the first time to my eyes he looked like a mid 30's player against Barcelona.
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Johnbuildr
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SuperEagle,May 30 2009
11:29 AM
Johnbuildr,May 29 2009
04:37 AM
<<I think this game also showed the importance of an early goal to a match's outcome. If Barcelona does not get that 10th minute goal, would the game have changed much? Although Manchester United began the game on the attack, after the goal they were on their back foot for most of the rest of the game. >>

That is a very astute and interesting observation, Libero. I am late posting and won't try to add to the excellent analysis here, other than to say that as a fan with no horse in the race, I thought it was a very good game with an interesting phsychological flow, which Libero nailed spot on. Undeniable that the best team won.
The pre game talking heads almost guaranteed the match to ManU, which kind of mystified me given Barca's season.  Then ManU came out and for all the world looked unstoppable and like they would steam roll their way to victory.  I was thinking, well, maybe the commentators were all right.
Then, Barca scores on their first real run, a counter in which you do not often see a world class back, who was in good position by the way, get beaten so badly, and it was suddenly a different game for almost the entire rest of the match.
I don't know for sure, but there was certianly something about that early goal that pyschologically, and in reality, completely turned the match around.

And as an antithesis to the early goal changes everything view is what happeend in today's FA Cup Final (don't read ffurther if you do not know the score!), Everton scored after only a minute but rather than panic, Chelsea kept up with their inital game plan and gradually came inot the match eventually equalising and later winning the game. An early goal doe snot necessarily have to change the psychology of a game, it did not in the FA Cup Final but it certainly did in the Champions League Final.

What amazed me about the match in Rome is that Manchester United all season long have eben so psychologically strong but barca's goal and subsequent passing just took the fight out of them. Even Alex Ferguson on the sideline looked resigend to the fcat that United wer enot goin to win this one.

Full credit to Barcelona for their silky passing movements. It can be difficult to play a team like them as they have you chasing so much. Chelsea succeeded in frustrating and muscling them off the ball but I agree with those who remarked here how barca learned from that my not giving United the opportunity to do that by passing the ball around quicker.

And poor Ryan Giggs, after such a fine season, for the first time to my eyes he looked like a mid 30's player against Barcelona.

Well, I will only add that the "early goal changes everything" phenomena obviously depends entirely on the goal down team's reaction. It can have some effect, huge effect or no effect at all. In the case of ManU, it seemd to suck the life out of them, along with, not to mention, Barca's superb passing and general level of play.
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum



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Simon
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Yes, congratulations to Barcelona - they were deserving winners.

I've read through the many contributions posted on this thread since I last posted, and as per usual with this place the analysis from everyone is great. It doesn't leave me too much to add about the game. For United fans, it was a real let-down. For ten minutes it was everything that that we'd hoped it would be as United played a positive and aggressive game, passed and moved at pace, and really rocked Barca back on their heels with a string of shots and corners. We'd spoken at length before the game of the huge importance of scoring the first goal, and IMO had Park put that early one in (or more likely had it fallen to Rooney) I think the game would have continued in the same vein and we'd have won. Instead, we gave Barca a cheap goal and we never got back in the game. Maybe 'cheap' is uncharitable as it was a decent take, but with my red-tinted glasses firmly on I didn't like the weak challenge from Anderson or the ease with which Vidic was turned. Vidic is an awesome defender who's had an immense season, but there's a definite vulnerability in his game when he's turned by a speedy attacker. Manzanares mentioned it before the game and referred to how Torres took advantage of it in March. It certainly really cost us here.

What's harder to account for, and several people have mentioned this, is the lack of reaction from United. Everything that we'd shown in the first 10 mins was absent for the remaining 80, and that is my main disappointment. Van der Sar is probably the one United player who can look in the mirror and know that he really did himself justice. Obviously against Barcelona that won't cut it. I always felt that we could turn it around, but that was more because of what I know about the team rather than how they were playing. The second goal (a header from Messi for god's sake!) finished it. I think when you play really well and lose, you can take it, but when you lose without playing anywhere near as well as you can it does leave a sour taste. Obviously some of the credit for that must go to Barcelona but there's more to the story than that, as United were giving the ball away and looked flat. To be honest, it looked to me like Barca simply wanted it more than we did. Maybe because of the hype and emotion of finally getting title number 18, or because we were already holders, I don't why but it still stings. We did miss Fletcher, okay we have a big squad but we didn't have any 'destructive' midfielders out there and it showed. By extension, you actually could say we really missed Owen Hargreaves, who's been out all season. If we can keep him fit all next season, he could be the best 'new signing' we could make!

Anyway, there it is. If United were pre-match favourites then it wouldn't have been by too much. Barcelona are a formidable team, and it's funny how Guardiola must think there's nothing to this coaching business! Having seen the way we played on the night, and the imposing form of Chelsea in the cup final, I reckon they could well have beaten us as well, so this was the lesser of two evils! Still, it was a wonderful, record-breaking season for us that delivered the trophy we really wanted plus another two besides, so I'm not too disheartened at one poor match at the end. It was a great trip, there weren't actually many Barcelona fans about but there were apparently 10,000 United fans all week. The Spanish were more evident on the night itself and it was nice to have a few drinks with them and sing each others' songs! I'm just not sure whether our Catalan was as good as their English! And of course, Rome's such a great place. As the Romans founded Manchester 2,000 years ago, it seemed ironic that the eternal city itself became a Mancunian colony all these years later! And you just can't beat having Diocletian's Palace and Trajan's Column on the path of your daily walk from your hotel into town. I'm always struck by the way the people of Rome take these things for granted. I think it would take me a heck of a long time before I got blase about living among things like the Colosseum, the Pantheon etc!

Once again, congratulations to Barcelona, and here's to United v Barca Round II, in next year's final! B)
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Nkono
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I am late to this discussion but just want to echo one of Simon's comments, as what surprised me too about this match was the lack of a reply from Manchester United when they went behind. I don't think we can use fatigue as an excuse as Manchester United had clinched the league title earlier and rested their starters on the final weekend of league play preceeding the European final. Maybe it was Barcelona's passing game but also credit the pressing Barcelona used against United. Eto'o and Messi are Barcelona's first line of defense and they put a lot of pressure on the opposition which made it hard for Manchester United to build up it's attack. Note that next season when you watch Barcelona play. Few forwards in the world pressure as well as Eto'o and Messi.
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Sporting
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Simon,Jun 1 2009
09:25 PM
you actually could say we really missed Owen Hargreaves, who's been out all season. If we can keep him fit all next season, he could be the best 'new signing' we could make!


Sadly, there are doubts about whether he'll ever be ready again for top-class football:

BBC
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Johnbuildr
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Simon,Jun 1 2009
01:25 PM
Yes, congratulations to Barcelona - they were deserving winners.

I've read through the many contributions posted on this thread since I last posted, and as per usual with this place the analysis from everyone is great. It doesn't leave me too much to add about the game. For United fans, it was a real let-down. For ten minutes it was everything that that we'd hoped it would be as United played a positive and aggressive game, passed and moved at pace, and really rocked Barca back on their heels with a string of shots and corners. We'd spoken at length before the game of the huge importance of scoring the first goal, and IMO had Park put that early one in (or more likely had it fallen to Rooney) I think the game would have continued in the same vein and we'd have won. Instead, we gave Barca a cheap goal and we never got back in the game. Maybe 'cheap' is uncharitable as it was a decent take, but with my red-tinted glasses firmly on I didn't like the weak challenge from Anderson or the ease with which Vidic was turned. Vidic is an awesome defender who's had an immense season, but there's a definite vulnerability in his game when he's turned by a speedy attacker. Manzanares mentioned it before the game and referred to how Torres took advantage of it in March. It certainly really cost us here.

What's harder to account for, and several people have mentioned this, is the lack of reaction from United. Everything that we'd shown in the first 10 mins was absent for the remaining 80, and that is my main disappointment. Van der Sar is probably the one United player who can look in the mirror and know that he really did himself justice. Obviously against Barcelona that won't cut it. I always felt that we could turn it around, but that was more because of what I know about the team rather than how they were playing. The second goal (a header from Messi for god's sake!) finished it. I think when you play really well and lose, you can take it, but when you lose without playing anywhere near as well as you can it does leave a sour taste. Obviously some of the credit for that must go to Barcelona but there's more to the story than that, as United were giving the ball away and looked flat. To be honest, it looked to me like Barca simply wanted it more than we did. Maybe because of the hype and emotion of finally getting title number 18, or because we were already holders, I don't why but it still stings. We did miss Fletcher, okay we have a big squad but we didn't have any 'destructive' midfielders out there and it showed. By extension, you actually could say we really missed Owen Hargreaves, who's been out all season. If we can keep him fit all next season, he could be the best 'new signing' we could make!

Anyway, there it is. If United were pre-match favourites then it wouldn't have been by too much. Barcelona are a formidable team, and it's funny how Guardiola must think there's nothing to this coaching business! Having seen the way we played on the night, and the imposing form of Chelsea in the cup final, I reckon they could well have beaten us as well, so this was the lesser of two evils! Still, it was a wonderful, record-breaking season for us that delivered the trophy we really wanted plus another two besides, so I'm not too disheartened at one poor match at the end. It was a great trip, there weren't actually many Barcelona fans about but there were apparently 10,000 United fans all week. The Spanish were more evident on the night itself and it was nice to have a few drinks with them and sing each others' songs! I'm just not sure whether our Catalan was as good as their English! And of course, Rome's such a great place. As the Romans founded Manchester 2,000 years ago, it seemed ironic that the eternal city itself became a Mancunian colony all these years later! And you just can't beat having Diocletian's Palace and Trajan's Column on the path of your daily walk from your hotel into town. I'm always struck by the way the people of Rome take these things for granted. I think it would take me a heck of a long time before I got blase about living among things like the Colosseum, the Pantheon etc!

Once again, congratulations to Barcelona, and here's to United v Barca Round II, in next year's final! B)

Kind of amazing hearing an on the spot report in this forum from someone who was there, in that deeply historical place for such a top event, Simon. Sounds like you ManU and Barca fans got along swimmingly, eh?
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum



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Simon
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Johnbuildr,Jun 3 2009
04:51 AM
Kind of amazing hearing an on the spot report in this forum from someone who was there, in that deeply historical place for such a top event, Simon. Sounds like you ManU and Barca fans got along swimmingly, eh?

Definitely, but then who wouldn't get along with Manchester United fans? We're all such fine, upstanding individuals! B)

Yeah, it was a great atmosphere. We seemed to have the support of most of the Italians as well, perhaps they enjoyed the spectacle of the whole thing (plus how much we were spending in their bars. Drink was pretty expensive). I did spot a couple of celeb United fans as well, including knights of the realm Sir David Frost and Sir Bob Geldof, though those two weren't together! It was an enjoyable trip, certainly more so than the last time I watched United in the Stadio Olimpico which was when the Carabinieri indiscriminately baton charged us all during the 2007 quarter-final!

Sporting, that's bad news about Hargreaves. He was immense for us in 2007/08 and we're really banking on having him for next season. And I'm in full agreement with Nkono's point about Barcelona's workrate. That was part of what I was getting at when I said about how they seemed to want it more than us. It was another of the disappointing elements of the game. The margins are tight in matches like that and little percentage points can make the difference.
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