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| Euro 2008- Knockout Rounds (R); Quarters, Semis & Final | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 18 2008, 09:19 AM (1,653 Views) | |
| libero | Jun 23 2008, 08:59 PM Post #61 |
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My thoughts are the same as these. Italy were undone by their lack of ambition. As noted by Yogi, Donadoni's substitution patterns were a puzzle throughout the tournament and his insistence on playing Toni when he wasn't playing well ended up hurting Italy's chances. And finally a word on Pirlo, a fine player and a key to Italy's midfield but why did he miss this game? Because he got yellow carded against France when he came in late on a tackle after being upset France didn't kick the ball out of bounds when an Italian player who was behind the play was injured! So ultimately Pirlo's petulance ended up costing Italy dearly. The bright spots for Italy at Euro 2008? Buffon, Chiellini and Grosso. I would not expect Donadoni to still be Italy's coach when World Cup qualifying begins in September. The teams who are left in the tournament are those that have shown some moxie and determination. Those lacking sufficient ambition like Italy are headed home. |
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| Merengue | Jun 24 2008, 07:32 AM Post #62 |
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I don't think our Italian fans here will want to listen to this but for those who speak Spanish here is the audio call of the penalties on Cadena Ser a Spanish radio network, they're always known for their irreverence as they do their studio show keeping people up to date on league games around the country and often will break out in song in the middle of a report. So here is their call during the penalties, obviously very much favoring Spain, http://www.cadenaser.com/deportes/audios/v...srcsrdep_8/Aes/ Note how when Rio born Marcos Senna is taking his penalty, the main commentator yells, "Christ the Reedemer" is looking down on you! iEl Dia 22 Italia dice adios! This rhymes in Spanish and is what they yell at the end of the penalties. |
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| Merengue | Jun 24 2008, 07:42 AM Post #63 |
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libero, makes a good point about why Pirlo was missing from the quarterfinal. He got hot headed and fouled a French attacker when France broke quickly and didn't kick the ball out when an Italian was lying injured in France's own penalty area! The guy was behind the play, Italy had a man advantage at the time, the referee didn't stop the play but Italy were looking to stop France's counter and when France didn't comply, Pirlo hacked down a French attacker and earned his yellow card which caused him to miss the quarterfinal. Somewhere in there is some justice. But it proved to be a costly play for Italy as Pirlo's presence was really missed by Italy. Against Spain, Italy again tried delaying Spain's counters by claiming an injured player, behind the play, needed assistance. Most notably this happened when DiNatale banged knees with a Spanish player and fell off the field but he rolled back on so play could stop and the referee obliged even when the ball was 40 meters away. I am not going to deny DiNatale was hurt, he likely was, but unless the ref whistles play stop one team should not be asking the other to stop play especially when the other team are counter attacking. Clearly Italy were doing this as pure gamesmanship to break up Spain's counters, just as they did against France. As our Italian posters have noted here, their solace should be that Donadoni's days as national coach are numbered. Welcome to Pedro/galicia. I've known him over several different message boards/ mailing lists over the years and he's a good observer of this sport. I am very happy he has joined us here. |
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| valenciano | Jun 24 2008, 07:58 AM Post #64 |
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Like all the Spanish posters here I greeted Spain's penalty kick victory with a combination of happiness and relief. It was not easy and I agree with those that say both teams were gripped by a certain fear in the match. Spain by their past troubles at this stage of tournaments and Italy by their lack of ambition as Yogi and libero noted. That made the game less of a spectacle for the neutrals but for those of us who followed either team it was as tense a match as you could ever watch. During play you just hoped a mistake would not decide the game. Penalties often are a roll of the dice but when you had the two best goalkeepers in the world on either side, it was fitting that one of them decided the outcome with his penalty saves rather than one of the shooters missing the target. On to the semifinals for Spain and I will be hoping that now that Spain has passed the mark of the quarterfinals, they will feel liberated and not bound by their past. So far Aragones has done well in building this team and preparing them mentally, now let us see what else he has in store for them. Merengue, I agree with you about the gamesmanship involved with trying to slow play because of an injured player away from the action. It has to be up to the officials on the field to determine if the injury is serious enough to stop play. It should not be a given that the attacking team is obligated to kick the ball out and stop their attack so a player behind the play gets treated. What was once a noble idea has been abused. |
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| dafyd | Jun 24 2008, 08:06 AM Post #65 |
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I thought Latino announcers/radio hosts were crazy, now I know where they get it from. Merengue, thanks for posting this. It was a joy to listen to. |
| Leper In A Stange Land | |
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| Martin | Jun 24 2008, 11:10 AM Post #66 |
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This has been a topic I have debated this year with some friends when we gather to watch games. I absolutely agree with valenciano's quote above that it has to be up to the ref to stop play and treat a player. It shouldn't be expected that the opposing team automatically has to put the ball out of play. We see this abused way too often, the example of DiNatale behind the play and rolling back on to the field is just the most recent, as this occurs with far too much frequency during the league seasons throughout the world. valenciano is spot on in saying what once was a noble act of sportsmanship in putting the ball out of play has been superseded by the gamesmanship of others, like DiNatale, who use that to try and stop an opponent's attack. I am also really disappointed that UEFA didn't reduce Volkan's 2 game suspension. They also are not allowing Turkey to add any additional players due to their injuries/suspensions. While the latter can be justified there is a precedence for UEFA allowing an extra player to be added late in a tourney as they did let Germany add a player towards the end of Euro 1996. But we all know there is one rule for big countries like Germany, Italy, France, Brazil, etc. and another for nations like Turkey. After my series of rants, let me now welcome pedro/ galicia to our discussions. I too have known him through several different forums and look forward to reading more of his views here. |
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| Simon | Jun 24 2008, 12:07 PM Post #67 |
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I think the British are ahead of the game here. These last 2 or 3 years it's been decided that all teams in Britain should just play to the whistle and if the ball needs to be put out of play for an injury, it's because the referee has whistled. Voila, all controversy, arguments and any gamesmanship that went on ended at a stroke. It's been a breath of fresh air. The only problems that arise are when a British team faces foreign opposition, a foreign players goes down (injured or otherwise) and the British players follow their recent convention and play on. Bizarrely, it seems that nothing else in this sport raises the fury of players more than when they think the opposition should have kicked the ball out but have played on! It almost always leads to a malicious foul, and the moment it was apparent the other day that France were playing on, my mate and I both chorused "yellow card at the end of this"! A kind of red mist descended over the Italians - it was Pirlo who got booked but only because he was the first to get there... It's a shame because it was good sportsmanship to see an opponent injured and to put the ball out so he could be treated, knowing you'd get the ball back. As has been said, it's just unfortunate that some players try to subvert this to break the opposition's flow. There hasn't been a problem for the British in standing alone on this as of course it was always a custom rather than a law, but I think it's for the best if everyone else follows suit. |
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| galicia | Jun 24 2008, 07:25 PM Post #68 |
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Thanks to all of you for the kind words of welcome. And thanks, of course, to Merengue for inviting me to this forum. Although this is just my second post, I have been reading for a few weeks and it has been a pleasure to read all your point of views without seeing any animosity in the posts. I want to bring up a couple of points that I have not seen discussed so far. On Monday afternoon (I live in the Eastern part of the US), I read an interview of Casillas published in lavozdegalicia.com, where he explained how Ochotorena (the goalkeepers' coach) had prepared a DVD of the potential Italian pk takers. Apparently he also gave him some handwritten notes on what their preferred spots to take the shots were. Apparently Ochotorena had done a similar thing with Pepe Reina in some Liverpool champions league game (but I don't recall the specifics). At any rate, what shocked me was that I got the impresion that the interviewer was trying to convey the idea that the Spanish coaches had been a bunch of geniuses for thinking of this, while all I could think was "my god!! does this mean that nobody thought of doing this before? No wonder we suck at pk shootouts". Later on the same day, they had an interview with Cesc. I think a similar one appeared in as.com, so this may be from an agency (perhaps the other one was as well). Cesc said that he hadn't taken a pk since he was 15. So this brings up two points. I wonder why Luis picked him to take the 5th shot. On the other hand, I doubt that the Italians had scouted the Catalonian under-15 league in 2002 to get Cesc's pk shooting style. Most interesting, though, is the comment that Cesc made about the pk itself. He said that he had been practising all his shots to go to the same side as Buffon actually took his dive. However, he said that he saw Buffon committing to that side, so he simply switched his shot to the other. So, it appears that Buffon was simply guessing on his dives as opposed to picking up clues from the way the pk taker was approaching the shot. So, to finish a long post, doesn't it surprise you that it appears that most teams seem to allow this critical aspect of the game to be left to blind luck (go there, big fella, pick a side and take a good dive!) or how a pk taker can control his nerves? No wonder everybody spouts this idea of "pk lottery" or "dumb luck". It seems that whatever team prepares for this would have an insane advantage. Come to think of it, doesn't Germany have an unbelievable record on pk shootouts? Many people attribute it to their machine-like approach to the game (no nerves, all business). I am willing to bet much more than a tenner that the Germans also have DVDs of the opposition and that the takers drill the exact placement of their shots. What do you think? Pedro |
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| xeneize | Jun 24 2008, 09:52 PM Post #69 |
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Great post Pedro, and it does seem amazing doesn't it that from the stories you've reported that some teams apparently do leave it to chance on defending penalty kicks. I do know Germany, as you write, do not simply rely on a goalie's guessing. As can be expected they are well prepared. When Germany eliminated Argentina on penalties in the 2006 World Cup quarterfinals, Jens Lehmann had his "cheat sheet" describing the Argentinians tendencies on penalty kicks. In fact I believe this sheet of paper was recently auctioned off in Germany for charity. As for kicking the ball out of play when a player is hurt (or allegedly hurt) I agree with Simon that the English league's edict that play won't be stopped unless the official signals it is the correct way to go. So the semifinals have snuck up on us, Germnay are the overwhelming favorites over depleted Turkey and for good reason they're favored. But any team with Turkey's heart cannot be underestimated. |
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| Hector | Jun 24 2008, 11:48 PM Post #70 |
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A pair of interesting, but very different, discussions going on. About penalties, I am very surprised to read what galicia writes that many teams do leave it to luck and don't adequately prepare to defend the penalties. I know sometimes it may be hard to scout a player's penalty kicks, for instance Cesc, as discussed, hadn't taken a penalty since he was 15 and Guiza won the pichichi this season in Spain without attempting a penalty for Mallorca so even if Italy had studied Spain's penalty takers they wouldn't have known much about either one of them. Regarding players faking injury to stop a counter attack, that is bad and I agree with the consensus here that it should be, as Simon tells us happens in England, that the referee determines if play should stop or not. It is a shame that the good intentions of kicking the ball out so an opponent can get treated has been abused by some. About tonight's semifinal, Germany must be the overwhelming favorites. Turkey are down to 13 players plus their third goalie who may be called upon to be a late game substitute in the field! Martin is right to say a larger country than Turkey likely would have had it's player's suspension reduced. Actually the goalie's suspension never would have been two games in the first place if he was from a more recognized footballing nation. Turkey have been brave in their fightbacks but so many of those have been led by Tuncay, Arda and Nihat, all of whom will miss tonight's semifinal. I think Germany wins this by a several goal margin. |
| iPuerta amigo, Sevilla esta contigo! | |
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| Manzanares | Jun 25 2008, 07:23 AM Post #71 |
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Maybe that explains why some teams do not scout out players penalties, how often are you going to see your opponents taking penalties, except for maybe one or two players who are either their club's or country's primary penalty takers?
I was listening to the podcast with our friend Martin and he said the same thing there, Turkey were punished more harshly than a nation like Germany, France or Italy would have been under the circumstances. I guess Turkey doesn't have enough influence within UEFA. It is extremely difficult to imagine the patchwork Turks beating Germany. As noted, the absences of Tuncay, Arda and Nihat take away their principal offensive sources. |
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| Martin | Jun 25 2008, 09:46 AM Post #72 |
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Thank you for listening Manzanares! Apart from giving what i think is too harsh a penalty to Volkan, to further support my claim that Turkey are getting the short end of the stick here, look what UEFA did in 1996 for Germany, http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...755C0A960958260
But that was Germany and this now is Turkey. What was good for the goose is not good for the gander! As Manzanares writes, Turkey have pulled off miracles before but now they will be without their chief offensive threats. It is asking an awful lot of them to pull off another miracle especially against a team as solid as Germany. Simon, I absolutely agree with you that the EPL's stance is the right thing to do to prevent, or at least try to prevent, gamesmanship by feigning injury to stop the opponent's attack. Let the ref be the ultimate decider if play should stop. galicia, a very interesting point you raise but maybe Manzanares has the reason why more teams don't scout penalty takers, it is hard to know what more than a handful do on penalties since they normally do not take them. Perhaps this also explains why so many star players, the ones who often do take penalties for both their club and country, end up missing in penalty shootouts- the opposition knows their tendencies when taking penalties? |
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| Simon | Jun 25 2008, 01:05 PM Post #73 |
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Germany 3-2 Turkey So, an exciting and entertaining game, but my god, just how bad is this German side? Dodgy keeper, terrible defence who were absolutely all over the place, static, sloppy and uninspired midfield and blunt up front. But apart from that they're great! I hardly know where to start really, Philip Lahm had an utterly catastrophic game at left-back. I know I've said before that I don't rate him too highly (defensively at least) but he was just beyond bad tonight, the Turks were taking it in turns to run past him using any trick they liked, and it seemed to be getting easier and easier each time. I've never seen anything quite like his defending on the second Turkish goal. I'd also like to see pass completion stats for Mertesacker and Metzelder because quite apart from their dodgy defending it was like they were having their own private competition to see who could give the ball away most. Credit to Turkey once again, they defied expectations by going right on the attack and they even scored yet another vital late late goal, only to concede one later still. The points we made about Volkan are important, because Rustu was badly at fault with the second German goal and committed himself too early IMO on the third, winning German goal. We know too much about German tenacity and big-game mentality to quite go as far as to say tomorrow's game is the 'final', but either Russia or Spain must really fancy their chances if they were watching that |
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| rosarino | Jun 25 2008, 03:18 PM Post #74 |
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You had to feel bad for Turkey as they gave it their all but ended up getting a taste of their own medicine with that late German goal by Lahm. And how ironic that Lahm, the worst player on the field for Germany ended up being their hero? Turkey knew they could attack Germany and I thought they had the better of the first half but Germany on practically one of their few decent chances in the first half tied it up a few minutes after the Turks took the lead. The pace of the game was incredible in the first 45 minutes but Turkey wisely due to their depth problems took it down a notch in the 2nd half. I wish I could talk more about the 2nd period but I missed a good 20 minutes of it with not one, not two but three interrumptions of the transmission from the source of origin! Where I was watching the broadcaster said it was a problem which effected the international feed! Damn, you would think in a country supposedly as well organized as Switzerland that they'd have backup systems in place. You don't even see that from developing countries like my own in international events. Maybe they'll have to change that old joke about European heaven and hell!
:lol: No offense intended to anyone! ; So is it true that all the world missed 20 or so minutes of the second half? Simon didn't make mention of it in his post so that makes me wonder if in the UK they had the problem with the feed that I had in the US. My brother in Argentina told me they missed it too but they also had the same broadcaster ESPN which was showing it in the US. |
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| Mr. Pither | Jun 25 2008, 03:51 PM Post #75 |
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I thought Germany improved when Rolffes went out with that cut on his eyebrow and was replaced by Frings. They were able to regain control of midfield and while I think rosarino is right that Turkey had more of the play in the first half, the second was to Germany's advantage. A much closer semifinal than many expected because Turkey played well and with intelligence and Germany has trouble against teams like Croatia and Turkey who know how to pass the ball around and aren't afraid to take it at Germany's suspect defenders. Be careful in the final Germany because both Spain and Russia know how to do that too. The added game suspension for Volkan did come back to hurt Turkey. Rustu did not have the best of games in goal for them. Too bad for the Turks, it is hard not to feel some sympathy for them under the circumstances, not only for the great heart they displayed throughout the tournament but because it does appear they have been treated more harshly by UEFA than necessary. rosarino, I heard it was everywhere but domestically in Switzerland who lost the picture at times in the second half. As you say it doesn't speak well for the noted Swiss efficiency! |
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