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European Championship History; Classic matches and goals
Topic Started: May 19 2008, 10:08 PM (1,802 Views)
raconteur
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My welcome to Gregoriak too. What a pisser your hard work uploading those videos got erased by the suits at UEFA. Sounds like you have extensive knowledge and interest in the history of the game, we look forward to your posts here.

Hey martin, you weren't the only poster here who used to fantasize in their youth about Elke Sommer! Even to this day whenever I watch "A Shot in the Dark" I still do! :D

German fans were blessed in the early to mid 70's to not only have such a great national team but also two wonderful club teams like Bayern Munich (Beckenbauer, Muller, Maier, Breitner, Schwarzenbeck) but also Borussia Monchengladbach (Netzer, Heynckes, Vogts, Wimmer). That to me was the best days for German football.
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Merengue
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I want to welcome Gregoriak here also. I invited him to this message baord as I know he is a lover of the game's history and might enjoy our discussions. I had no idea he also was a YouTube video contributor. Too bad about your hard work getting taken down Gregoriak. But we all look forward to reading more from you here.

When Barcelona signed Johan Cruyff, Real Madrid responded by signing Gunter Netzer. As a boy I remember watching him play for the merengues and his blond hair flapping all over the place. He was a real showman but more than that he was an excellent midfielder full of skill and energy.

Thank you by the way for the information about Berti Vogts and why he missed Euro 72.
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Gregoriak
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Thank you very much everyone!
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Gregoriak
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Yogi,Jul 15 2008
02:47 PM

Maybe you can answer this, why was Netzer replaced by the veteran Wolfgang Overath on the 1974 World Cup winning team? I was under the impression Netzer was injured. Is this true?


Here's the Netzer story for the years 1965-1974:

Netzer had debuted for West Germany in October 1965 in a great 4-1 win against Austria (he was the best player in that match). He was predicted to be the new playmaker, but he lost his form in early 1966 and wasn't called up regularly during that year, but he still made the 40 players list for the 1966 World Cup - but then he got injured "right in time", so he missed the 1966 Cup.

During the next two years, Netzer found it difficult to replicate his club form when he played for Germany, and also Overath was a player that usually played well for Germany and who was already established, since Overath had played a fine 1966 World Cup. Germany during these years was usually playing a 4-2-4, thus it was hard for Netzer to get a place as one of the two midfielders, as Overath and Beckenbauer were his competitors there. By late-1967, Helmut Schön had switched from 4-2-4 to 4-3-3, with Beckenbauer playing centrally, Overath on the left plus usually one working defensive player - so there still was no place for Netzer, despite three midfield positions being available. While Netzer played superbly for Gladbach during those years, so did Overath for Köln, hence Schön saw no reason to replace the tested and reliable Overath with Netzer. It also wasn't helpful that Netzer played for a small town club like Gladbach, while Overath played for big town club Köln.

Then there was the "myth" that Overath and Netzer (who were friends off the pitch) "couldn't play together". This myth was born in December 1967 in Tirana, Albania. West Germany needed to win there in order to make it to the 1968 European Championship. Of course nobody thought that would pose big problems, so Helmut Schön did experiment in that important game, leaving Uwe Seeler, Franz Beckenbauer and Gerd Müller all at home and playing with Overath and Netzer in a 4-2-4 formation. The game ended 0-0 and it was a pitiful performance. A disaster of the worst kind. This was the moment that the media and pundits started to claim that Overath and Netzer couldn't play together (which at that time meant no place for Netzer).

During the 1968-69 season however, Overath hit a slump as Köln were fighting against relegation the whole season thru, while Gladbach finished third in the league. Thus Netzer got more playing time in late-1968. In the December game against Brazil, Germany played with 4 defenders plus a traditional sweeper, which allowed Schön to let two offensive midfielders take the place in the 1-4-2-3 formation used in that match. It did work quite well, but by early 1969, Netzer was plagued by minor injuries, while Overath was having a comeback with Köln. In the 69-70 season, Gladbach won their first German championship in great style, and Netzer was the star of the season. However he still found it hard to repeat his Gladbach performances when playing for West Germany. One of the reasons was that he and Vogts were the only Gladbach players starting for Germany, but Netzer was depending on his Gladbach surroundings (most notably Herbert Wimmer) - unlike Overath, who adapted better.

In February 1970, Germany lost 0-2 to Spain in Sevilla. Overath and Beckenbauer missed this game due to minor injuries so Netzer got the job of playmaker in the midfield. Germany played very bad. All players were bad but especially aging Helmut Haller who was just too slow. However Schön only criticized Netzer afterwards, something Netzer was not accepting - so there was a friction between the two, and Schön didn't nominate Netzer for the next game vs Romania. However Schön realized that it was wrong to single out Netzer as being responsible for the poor game vs. Spain so they reconciled, yet Netzer got injured just before the squads were announced, thus he missed the 1970 World Cup.

Beckenbauer, Netzer and Overath were all quite good friends (as far as that is possible for players that play in different clubs). They were all roughly the same age and their careers went parallel. Netzer found it difficult to adjust his style of play to that of the German NT prior to 1971, so Overath was mostly chosen ahead of him, as he was the opposite to Netzer in that respect, as he underperformed with his club, but overperformed playing for Germany, while Netzer underperformed with Germany but overperformed with his club – until 1971.

Gladbach was the top Bundesliga team playing breathtakingly fast and technically sound football, all marshalled by Netzer. Thus manager Schön started to invite more and more Gladbach players into the NT, in 1971 at times the whole midfield was Gladbach-only. This obviously suited Netzer and his style of play immensely and since Overath was plagued by injuries around that time, it was no coincidence that Netzer took over the German NT. Beckenbauer was neutral in all of this, He had no problems adapting to the changed environment. He performed well with either Overath or with Netzer. After the great run in the European Championships in 1972, Netzer was plagued by injuries very often in the 1972-73 season, so Overath picked up his place in the national side again throughout almost all games played by Germany in 1973. Then Netzer signed a contract with Real Madrid in the summer of 1973, leaving Germany altogether, which didn’t help his prospects for 1974. In Madrid, Netzer faced the same problems he had when playing for Germany in the late-1960s, mostly that he needed a team that suited him and his style of play. Madrid was almost opposite to Mönchengladbach, so Netzer had a difficult time in this first year at Madrid.

Throughout 1973, Beckenbauer and Müller had still hoped that Netzer would get fit again, because they were in favor of Netzer as their teaming up with the Gladbach players had proved so outstandingly successful in 1971 and 1972, so their hope was that Netzer would get back into the team by 1974 in order to duplicate the success of 1972. But it didn`t work out, and time was running out, so Beckenbauer pretty much decided to play the tournament with Overath (as they did in most games since 1973, due to Netzer`s constant injury troubles). There were no ego reasons involved in that, as all of them got on pretty well with each other. But when you watch the West Germany vs. East Germany match, when Netzer got off the bench to substitute Overath, Beckenbauer makes it obvious that he had already made his mind up about the situation and that he didn`t want to have Netzer in the team, he played no passes to Netzer and generally seems to ignore him on the field. But that was not due to his ego, he just wanted to show Schön that his captain had made a decision and that Overath would be the man, regardless of how 'bad' he played vs. East Germany. That was bad luck for Netzer but for Germany it was the right decision, which was proven by them winning the title in 1974 without Netzer.

So Netzer missed the 1966 and 1970 World Cups due to injury and was out of form in 1974 due to injury again, but at least he was part of the squad that time. Netzer's World Cup story is a rather sad affair.

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Gregoriak
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I'm about to upload the highlights clips of the 1972 Euro final back to YouTube. Meanwhile, a couple of Netzer pics:

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squidward123
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historyman,Jul 15 2008
09:53 PM
Yogi,Jul 15 2008
02:47 PM
Welcome to the message board Gregoriak.  Nice to know we have a YouTube sensation in our midsts!  I'm looking forward to reading more from you about Germany's football history. 

Maybe you can answer this, why was Netzer replaced by the veteran  Wolfgang Overath on the 1974 World Cup winning team? I was under the impression Netzer was injured.  Is this true?

Helmut Schoen, the WG manager, preferred players like Wolfgang Overath and Rainer Bonhof to Netzer as they were perceived to be more reliable and hard working.

I suppose it's the age old argument. Do you pick a player who may contribute little or nothing for the 90 minutes, in the hope that he'll change the game with a moment of sublime skill? Or do you choose a player with far less skill, but who will run non-stop and work hard for the team?

Alf Ramsey built his England side which won the 1966 WC on the latter principle, and Helmut Schoen did something similar. I think that he viewed Netzer as an expensive luxury that he couldn't afford.

What is the truth in this regarding Overath, Netzer and Schoen Gregoriak? My impression was that there was no difference in skill between Overath and Netzer. In addition, Overath was a better defender except lacked the flashy hair of Netzer!
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enganche
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Speaking of flashy hair, nobody could match Paul Breitner's mop of hair! But man that guy could play. Giacinto Faccheti was I believe one of the first overlapping left backs but Breitner much like Argentina's Juan Pablo Sorin in more recent times was a left back who would pop up almost everywhere on the field. Breitner was a real character on and off the field.

Welcome on board squidward!
Prefiero morir de pie que vivir arrodillado
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Mr. Pither
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Gregoriak,Jul 15 2008
11:19 AM
Mr. Pither,May 20 2008
01:12 PM


That is some team Germany had then. By the way Merengue, Berti Vogts was a young reserve on the 1972 team.  By 1974 though he had become the starter.


Vogts had been injured in one of the games against Inter Milan in late 1971 playing for Borussia Mönchengladbach. He had been a regular for Germany from 1967 to 1971, but that injury eliminated him from play for about 4-5 months. By the time the final Euro games were played, Vogts had been back from his injury only recently thus he wasn't a regular yet.

Thank you for the correction Gregoriak, I guess my memory is failing in my old age! :D An easy check of Vogts C.V. online would have confirmed that he was already on Germany's team pre 1972. Few players have had a more appropriate nickname that Vogts, "The Terrier" he really was a dogged little guy nipping at the heels of his opponents!

An interesting aspect of the 1976 tournament that we discussed earlier which was won by Czechoslovakia was that both semiifnals (Czechoslovakia over Holland and West Germany over Yugoslavia) went to extra time while the final went to penalties. Perhaps that was one of the most evenly matched European championships ever?

But the Czechs joined Denmark 1992 and Greece 2004 as European champions who did not even qualify for the next World Cup!

My welcome goes out to Gregoriak and squidward as well. I am a newcomer here too and really enjoy the discussions, I think you two will as well.
P-I-T-H-E-R ...as in Brotherhood, but with PI instead of the BRO and no HOOD
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Merengue
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I guess one of the beautiful aspects of the European championships is that surprising teams can still win the title, as proven by Czechoslovakia 1976, Denmark 1992 and Greece 2004. Compare that to the World Cup which might be an argument against expanding the European championship and making it more like the World Cup. The more teams involved, the more games are required and with that wear and tear on the teams, so that those with greater depth, usually the typical powers, are more likely to win the event.

Welcome to the forums Gregoriak and squidward123.
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squidward123
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Mr. Pither,Jul 21 2008
09:38 AM
Gregoriak,Jul 15 2008
11:19 AM
Mr. Pither,May 20 2008
01:12 PM


That is some team Germany had then. By the way Merengue, Berti Vogts was a young reserve on the 1972 team.  By 1974 though he had become the starter.


Vogts had been injured in one of the games against Inter Milan in late 1971 playing for Borussia Mönchengladbach. He had been a regular for Germany from 1967 to 1971, but that injury eliminated him from play for about 4-5 months. By the time the final Euro games were played, Vogts had been back from his injury only recently thus he wasn't a regular yet.

Thank you for the correction Gregoriak, I guess my memory is failing in my old age! :D An easy check of Vogts C.V. online would have confirmed that he was already on Germany's team pre 1972. Few players have had a more appropriate nickname that Vogts, "The Terrier" he really was a dogged little guy nipping at the heels of his opponents!

An interesting aspect of the 1976 tournament that we discussed earlier which was won by Czechoslovakia was that both semiifnals (Czechoslovakia over Holland and West Germany over Yugoslavia) went to extra time while the final went to penalties. Perhaps that was one of the most evenly matched European championships ever?

But the Czechs joined Denmark 1992 and Greece 2004 as European champions who did not even qualify for the next World Cup!

My welcome goes out to Gregoriak and squidward as well. I am a newcomer here too and really enjoy the discussions, I think you two will as well.

Thank you to mr. pither, enganche and merengue for the welcomes!

I look forward to discussions about the past of football; I enjoy those more than current day talk.

I'll forward these links to others I feel would be good contributors here. In gregoriak you've got an excellent one already
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Manzanares
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Merengue,Jul 21 2008
03:30 PM
I guess one of the beautiful aspects of the European championships is that surprising teams can still win the title, as proven by Czechoslovakia 1976, Denmark 1992 and Greece 2004.  Compare that to the World Cup which might be an argument against expanding the European championship and making it more like the World Cup.  The more teams involved, the more games are required and with that wear and tear on the teams, so that those with greater depth, usually the typical powers, are more likely to win the event.

Welcome to the forums Gregoriak and squidward123.

Interesting point Merengue and you may be correct. It has been more possible for "lesser powers" to do well in a European championship than a World Cup and the slightly lesser game load might be the explanation for that. In a World Cup we have seen nations like Belgium, Uruguay (post 1950), Sweden, Bulgaria, Croatia and Turkey make it to the semifinals but not beyond. And the difference between that an a European championship where Czechoslovakia, Denmark and Greece have won the title? One less match played in the European tournament. An expansion of the European championship may, as Merengue suggests, lead to a return where only the deeper more traditional powers will win out. It is an interesting theory.

I extend my welcome to our new posters too.
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shelsoccer
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Sorry, need to point out that Sweden has made it to a WC final, at home in '58. Of course, you played fewer games then.
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Johnbuildr
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shelsoccer,Jul 22 2008
07:51 AM
Sorry, need to point out that Sweden has made it to a WC final, at home in '58. Of course, you played fewer games then.

I would have been disappointed if our resident Sweden fan had not caught that! (But then I wouldn't have known anyway come to thhink of it.)

So, are you old enough to remember than '58 run by the Swedes, Shel?
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum



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shelsoccer
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Not exactly. I was five, and it'd be another eight years before I ever saw a soccer game.
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rosarino
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Manzanares,Jul 21 2008
06:42 PM
Merengue,Jul 21 2008
03:30 PM
I guess one of the beautiful aspects of the European championships is that surprising teams can still win the title, as proven by Czechoslovakia 1976, Denmark 1992 and Greece 2004.  Compare that to the World Cup which might be an argument against expanding the European championship and making it more like the World Cup.  The more teams involved, the more games are required and with that wear and tear on the teams, so that those with greater depth, usually the typical powers, are more likely to win the event.

Welcome to the forums Gregoriak and squidward123.

Interesting point Merengue and you may be correct. It has been more possible for "lesser powers" to do well in a European championship than a World Cup and the slightly lesser game load might be the explanation for that. In a World Cup we have seen nations like Belgium, Uruguay (post 1950), Sweden, Bulgaria, Croatia and Turkey make it to the semifinals but not beyond. And the difference between that an a European championship where Czechoslovakia, Denmark and Greece have won the title? One less match played in the European tournament. An expansion of the European championship may, as Merengue suggests, lead to a return where only the deeper more traditional powers will win out. It is an interesting theory.

I extend my welcome to our new posters too.

That is an interesting theory. You wouldn't think one extra game would make such a difference, and that is the difference in games played between the Euro Cup and the World Cup for the teams which reach the final. But truth is since 1962 only Czechoslovakia (1962) and Holland (1974 & 1978) have been "outsiders" who've reached the World Cup Final. Every other World Cup finalists since 1962, and that is 12 tournaments, so 21 out of the 24 finalists have been one of this elite group of countries: Argentina, Brazil, Germany, Italy, France or England. I don't know if the extra game explains the more egalitarian nature of the European Cup but it is striking that outsiders have a much better record of winning that tournament than the World Cup.
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