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| UEFA Cup | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 21 2007, 07:23 AM (1,303 Views) | |
| Pepe | May 15 2008, 11:32 AM Post #76 |
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I think shelsoccer's analysis is on target here, Zenit may have a de facto policy on not signing black players (as referred to by their coach Advocaat) but we can be pretty certain there isn't anything explicitly banning the club from signing black players. As long as that is the case then I don't see how UEFA could punish them. As both gaviota and shelsoccer point out, Russia is not an EU memebr and not subject to EU anti discriminatory laws so there would not be any basis to sue them. And Russia we all can reasonably assume doesn't have such laws on it's books either (plus the new Russian president reportedly is a Zenit fan!) Football allows clubs like Guadalajara in Mexico and Athletic Bilbao in Spain to have exclusionary rules on signing players (only Mexicans in Guadalajara's case, only Basques for Athletic) so I wonder even if Zenit were subject to EU laws if they could be enforced against a football club? Bottom line is Zenit could, as noted, be punished for acts by it's fans which are racially abusive but I don't see how the club itslef could be punished for an exclusionary signing policy. On to the game itself, I join others in thinking Zenit played well and do have a very good passing team. Arshavin will be hard for them to keep in the offseason no matter how much money the club may have as he may wish post Euro 2008 to try and play in a more competitive league than Russia's even with Zenit playing next season in the Champions League. |
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| Simon | May 15 2008, 01:20 PM Post #77 |
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I don't think Russian law enters into it. Maybe I'm wrong, but if it could be demonstrated that Zenit have an official club policy of never signing black players then I think UEFA could just kick them out of European competition if it so wished. What could Zenit do about that? Appealing the decision in the Russian courts would be futile as they have no jurisdiction over UEFA. Indeed, whenever people try and take football issues through the civil courts they usually risk FIFA bringing the sky down on their heads as FIFA insists that all footballing issues are dealt with 'in house'. My guess is that if Zenit appealed the decision, their last resort would be the European Court of Sporting Arbitration in Lausanne. But racism hardly brings good PR, does it? If Zenit were formally proved to have this policy (and it doesn't sound like it would take much digging to prove it, based on Advocaat's comments) then UEFA would have to punish them and make that punishment stick. |
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| Johnbuildr | May 16 2008, 04:52 AM Post #78 |
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Excellent points by all and an interesting intellectual exercise. Simon hits the nail on the head in that UEFA would not have to tread into the Russian legal system to make their point. Of course the reality is that UEFA isn't likely going to do anything that they are not forced to do, such as if the fans go over the line. They do have the power to react to and stem that kind of thing though, without doubt. |
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Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum | |
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| Winslow | May 16 2008, 05:36 AM Post #79 |
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...especially compared with the angelic Rangers fans: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7401188.stm I'm amazed that no one's mentioned the violence in downtown Manchester during and after the match. Yes, we're talking about a small minority of fans provoking the trouble, and signs are that Manchester police made a complete hash of crowd control, but some of the footage is just disgraceful--a pack of yobbos chasing down a lone cop and kicking him around, for example. One Zenit supporter was stabbed, though apparently not seriously hurt. A plague on both their houses. |
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| Simon | May 16 2008, 09:02 AM Post #80 |
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Funnily enough, virtually none of the post-match debate has been about either the match itself or Zenit's win. The most important wider point that we've been discussing is UEFA's capacity, or lack of, for intervention in punishing Zenit for their recruitment policies. However, as Winslow says, that's not what's been in the news in the UK. Most coverage has been about those idiot Rangers fans who went on the rampage after the game (and indeed during it in some cases, when a big screen showing the game in the city centre malfunctioned). I haven't actually heard any criticism of the Manchester police, far be it from me to defend the GMP! I have to say from accounts and from my personal experience, 99% of the Rangers fans were great. Unfortunately as Winslow says, a hundred or so of the 100,000 was all it took to make banner headlines. The videos on Winslow's link tell the story, and the first video on this link shows some of the knuckle-dragging morons kicking police vans http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7404185.stm Rangers have already said that permanent banning orders will be given to all those arrested. What's peed me off most is that as a consequence of this the council have announced that there'll be no big screens in Manchester showing wednesday's CL final. So it seems that we have to suffer on account of these a***holes :angry: |
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| Martin | May 16 2008, 10:03 AM Post #81 |
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Sorry for the delay in responding here and I think this is a fascinating discussion. I think Simon's reply is on target here, UEFA could if it wished ban Zenit for having an exclusionary racial poilicy. It doesn't have to rely upon EU or Russian law on the matter, it invites clubs to participate in it's competitions (or actually I think it tells the various federations they have the right to send X amount of teams to a competition) and if a particular club doesn't meet a UEFA criteria it can be banned. But I don't think there would be a basis for suspending Zenit for having an exclusionary policy because that would be extremely difficult even with Advocaat's statement to prove. I don't think that is enough of a 'smoking gun." The club could simply say we don't have an exclusionary policy, we just haven't yet signed any black players. What is curious to me is that Zenit has both a South Korean and a Turkish player on it's roster and you'd think those players would also meet with opposition from the racist sector of the club's support. As was discussed previously what would be more likely is UEFA fining the club for some racist chanting by it's fans with the threat of a future ban if that continued. With Zenit competing next season in the Champions League I have a feeling we'll be dealing with this issue again. It is too bad this issue and the violence by Rangers fans have overshadowed our discussions of the final itself. Simon, I did eventually get to see a replay of the game and I thought Zenit were worthy champions [but am still glad I decided to watch the Copa Libertadores games live instead ]. Arshavin really is a good midfielder and he and some other players on the club will have plenty of suitors this offseason. Although the club may have a large financial backer that still didn't prevent central defender Martin Skrtel from leaving this winter and signing with Liverpool.
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| Club Sportivo Desamparados | |
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| shelsoccer | May 16 2008, 12:36 PM Post #82 |
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Thanks to Simon and Martin. At the risk of beating a dead horse ... My thought has been that if there was ever a team likely to take on UEFA in such a situation, it would be Zenit. They're well-funded by Gazprom. Their boardroom is populated by the oligarchs now so influential in Russia. Putin is a St. Petersburg native, Zenit supporter and bent on restoring Russian power, while tweaking the West when he feels the urge. If it were to go to arbitration in Lausanne, wouldn't there have to be some consideration of Russian law? Forget about anti-discrimination and employment laws for a minute. What about restraint of trade if Zenit were tossed out of Europe or banned from playing home games? Oh well, as Martin rightly points out, there isn't enough of a smoking gun, so we (me) are dealing in hypotheticals. I'll move on. It's Friday afternoon after all. |
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| Winslow | May 20 2008, 05:39 AM Post #83 |
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Martin's point is very sound; the Zenit brass can always maintain deniability as long as there's nothing written down. I remember some grumbling about Blackburn Rovers' management several years ago, when the club was the only one in the EPL without a black player. The owner's alleged racial bias was never proven, the club did finally sign Martin Dahlin--yes, he's Swedish, but it still counts--and now Blackburn is as inclusive as most English clubs. Regarding Zenit's Korean and Turkish players: the simplest answer is that being Korean or Turkish is not the same as being black. I could easily be mistaken, and don't wish to tar an entire society, but blacks have always been particular targets for small-minded Russians--even though the old Soviet authorities brought many Africans to the USSR to study Marxism and spread it around the world. |
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]. Arshavin really is a good midfielder and he and some other players on the club will have plenty of suitors this offseason. Although the club may have a large financial backer that still didn't prevent central defender Martin Skrtel from leaving this winter and signing with Liverpool.
5:04 PM Jul 10