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| UEFA Cup | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 21 2007, 07:23 AM (1,305 Views) | |
| El Profe | May 13 2008, 11:10 PM Post #61 |
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That might be hard to prove the club have a policy of refusing to sign black players but it would be fascinating to see if there are any agents out there who offered black players to the club only to be turned down. That may not be a smoking gun but it sure would help bolster an argument against the club's racist policies. historyman is right, this could prove to be a noteworthy case for UEFA to see if they end up backing their words. |
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| gaviota | May 14 2008, 01:26 AM Post #62 |
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UEFA won't do anything about not signing any black players as Zenit have a wealthy patron and it would be hard to impose upon a club that it has to sign players of a certain origin, but what they might do is punish the club if it's fans engage in any racist chants. |
| CHAMP13NS | |
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| Johnbuildr | May 14 2008, 04:46 AM Post #63 |
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Well, maybe something is lost upon me in the above short post, but I fail to understand how having a wealthy patron precludes or even discourages UEFA from doing something about admitted racism, such as Advocaat apparently acknowledged. And, you do not "impose upon a club that it has to sign players of a certain origin...", you penalize them for blatant racism and failing to afford players a chance or opportunity due to their race. Besides, the proof is in the pudding; a top level team in this day and age that refuses to have any players of color on their roster, and thus has none, is obviously practicing a racial exclusion policy. DUH.
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Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum | |
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| Simon | May 14 2008, 08:39 AM Post #64 |
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My only thought is that if anyone at UEFA asks Zenit to justify their recruitment policy they can simply say that they've won the Russian Championship and made it to the UEFA Cup Final. The only 'smoking gun' would be Dick Advocaat's comments but IMO that is basis enough for UEFA to look into it at the very least. I know there's a problem with this in Eastern Europe, but sports stars and footballers can be positive role models and can break down barriers. I hadn't heard of the abuse of Marseille players or the warnings about conduct in Manchester that enganche refers to. It's one thing when fans are racist as that is often a societal thing and providing a club is trying to combat racist chanting I sometimes think it's harsh to penalise a club for the actions of its fans. However it's quite another thing if the club itself is racist as a matter of club policy, as with Zenit. The article I read pointed out that Zenit have two South Koreans, so the problem seems only to be with blacks. Whatever, it's pathetic, but I remain an optimist on this subject. Just think of the progress made over the last few decades. Historyman mentioned Rangers and that's a case in point, they used to have a 'no catholics' rule which they broke when Mo Johnston went there and ever since they have had plenty of catholics and it's a non-issue. On a lighter note, Manchester today is absolutely teeming with Scots. They're pouring out of Piccadilly Station by the trainload, I think the entire population of Scotland is in the city now! The trams aren't running now as it was impractical given this mass of humanity! UEFA have a decent story on the tartan army: http://www.uefa.com/competitions/uefacup/n...sid=695852.html And the the BBC have some photos of the fans in town. Take a look at pictures 11 and 12, showing Piccadilly Gardens by the train station and Albert Square, taken from the town hall! http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7399999.stm |
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| Manzanares | May 14 2008, 09:08 AM Post #65 |
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Sounds like everyone in Scotland but the Celtic supporters are in your home city now Simon! I always enjoyed watching World Cups where Scotland competed for the sheer joy of their fans and their celebrations. It is one of the good things about this sport. On the other side you have these issues with Zenit which bring out some of the worst of fan support. For a neutral like me it is now easy to select which team I'll be hoping wins this UEFA Final. Like Supereagle said, that choice was made easier once some of the behaviour of Zenit's fans and the club itself came to light. |
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| shelsoccer | May 14 2008, 10:20 AM Post #66 |
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As someone who has spent a fair amount of time in Russia/Soviet Union for both professional and personal reasons, I really wanted to get behind Zenit. Won't be able to do that now. |
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| gaviota | May 14 2008, 11:11 AM Post #67 |
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My post is that with a backer like Gazprom, who supply most of the world's natural gas, I don't see UEFA standing up to Zenit. Unfortunately in this world, those with power can get away with things that others would not. As for Advocaat's comments that the club's fans won't let them sign black players, I don't see what UEFA can do about that. The club could claim they aren't signing black players so they won't have their own fans racially abusing them. Plus I don't see how UEFA or any international body can force a team to sign a particular player. Russia are not members of the EU so that group's anti discriminatory laws would not apply. I'm not supporting what Zenit are doing, just saying I don't think there is anything UEFA can do other than fine the club if their fans are caught racially abusing an opposition player in a UEFA match. |
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| Martin | May 14 2008, 12:48 PM Post #68 |
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UEFA Cup Final result X X X X X X X X X Zenit 2 Rangers 0 I didn't see the game but followed it online via the BBC's updates, doesn't sound like it was a particularly good match, the reports had Rangers once more sitting back and defending while Zenit had more of the play but I'd like to read what those who watched it thought of the game. Still it took them until the 73rd minute to open the scoring as Igor Denisov made it 1-0. A final goal was scored in injury time. Zenit's fans have rightfully turned so many of us off on the club but the team have had an incredible UEFA Cup run and win their first international trophy today. Next year it is on to the Champions League for them. I had a choice today, take a long lunch and watch the UEFA Cup Final or work through lunch and leave early to watch the Copa Libertadores. I'm glad I chose the latter! |
| Club Sportivo Desamparados | |
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| Simon | May 14 2008, 01:27 PM Post #69 |
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You're glad so far, what if the other games are bad?! This one was much as you described. Zenit had much more of the play in the first half, although the second half was more even. Zenit didn't create much with their possession and Rangers defended very well. David Weir is 39 years old now, but the old warhorse, formerly of Everton, was excellent and so was Carlos Cuellar who I believe is the writer's Player of the Year in Scotland. The second half was much better as Rangers looked after the ball better and Zenit showed more urgency. There was a flurry of Rangers chances when they broke through with Darcheville and I must admit after our conversation on here I was really hoping Darcheville's shot would go in, but it wasn't to be. If anyone was the difference between the two teams I would say it was Andrei Arshavin who created the game-breaking goal for Demisov. He had some good fortune when the ball went through Cuellar's legs. Rangers made a bunch of substitutions and had some success by going direct. They made a great chance to equalise through Novo but he skied his shot and Zenit scored a clever second on the break with the last action of the game. It's funny, Everton made Zenit look quite ordinary when beating them at Goodison Park in the group phase, but the Russians have come alive in the competition's final stages. Brave effort by Rangers but the Quadruple is off the cards. Never mind, they have a nice easy week to follow - four matches! I'll be interested to see how Zenit can do in the CL, as they go automatically into the group phase. It would also be nice if they change their philosophy so we can find some pleasure in their successes! I suppose for this game we can say they were 'all white on the night', if you'll pardon the pun... p.s. Martin you won't have seen this, but there were regular UEFA 'No to Racism' messages flashed up on the advertising hoardings. Don't you just know there's someone at UEFA HQ thinking 'nice one chaps, we've dealt with that one!' :rolleyes: |
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| rosarino | May 14 2008, 08:52 PM Post #70 |
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I think Simon has correctly summarised the game. Zenit were the better team but had trouble breaking through Rangers well organized defense. But in that 2nd half as Rangers came a bit out of their shell, Zenit had more space and Arvashin did very well setting Demisov up for the game winning goal. No arguments about who the better team was on the day and fortunately I didn't hear any abusive chants or activites from Zenit's fans either. In the last four years two Russian clubs CSKA Moscow and now Zenit sandwiched Sevilla's back to back UEFA Cup wins. An interesting dynamic there. CSKA were unable to build upon their UEFA Cup win, we'll see if the better financial backing of Zenit will enable them to have more success in the future. |
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| historyman | May 14 2008, 09:30 PM Post #71 |
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So in the end it was just one game too far for Rangers. I thought that the two Zenit goals were beautifully created, and virtually impossible to defend. Worthy champions. |
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| Don Balon | May 15 2008, 12:31 AM Post #72 |
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The behaviour described here by some of Zenit's fans is indefensible. But from a pure footballing sense this is a pretty good team and worthy UEFA Cup champions. I was really impressed with how they passed the ball, quickly, sharply and often using one touch on the ball. It was a precision performance. Rangers tried hard but in my view they just couldn't match Zenit's skillful play. Arshavin is their chief architect in midfield but he is far from alone and I will be interested to see how many of Zenit's players make Russia's team for Euro 2008. |
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| shelsoccer | May 15 2008, 07:57 AM Post #73 |
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And, I'll be interested to see if Zenit can hang on to Arshavin. Have to think some club in England, Spain or Italy would be willing to toss around some pretty big numbers to lure him west. |
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| Johnbuildr | May 15 2008, 08:12 AM Post #74 |
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Ok, this is probably going too far beyond the main thread, and even most people's interest, but I'll add a little anyway. The only point in Gav's below post that I agree with is that the super-wealthy get away with things others cannot. Not that most owners of top level clubs in the world are not all pretty damned wealthy anyway, so if that is followed ot its logical conclusion they can all do whatever they want with no repercussions. But other than that unfortunate fact of life in the real world, I disagree that UEFA is powerless or that there is nothing they can do but fine a racist club if their fans become abusive. Hell, they could flat out ban them from the current or future competitions if the fans became abusive, among ohter things. And a big part of Gav's logic degenerates to nonsense when he says, "I don't see how UEFA or any international body can force a team to sign a particular player." I say 'nonsense' because no one here was ever implying that they would or should or could do that. That is not how EEO is set up, how it is monitored, nor how it is enforced. Funny thing here, me, a moderate sized company owner, who is overloaded with and fed up with many of our US' EEO laws and foolishness, being caught up in defending the whole concept here. Ah well, life is about finding reasonable moderation and justifiable accomodation in all things. Zenit is way over the line obviously and blatantly racist(by all accounts). If that does not come back at some point to kick 'em in the groin, then it's just too damn bad. |
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Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum | |
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| shelsoccer | May 15 2008, 08:43 AM Post #75 |
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If the only issue is whether or not Zenit has some sort of (presumably) unwritten policy not to sign black players, I think UEFA would enter a legal morass if they tried to punish the club. As has been pointed out, Russia is not a member of the European Union. Therefore, Russian business does not have to comply with EU equal employment opportunity and anti-discrimination laws. I have no idea what Russian law says about EEO and anti-discrimination, but I'd be willing to bet it's a lot less demanding than the laws of the EU and the US. Unless Zenit has done something that is in violation of Russian law, I don't see how UEFA could expect to have any legal argument that would stand up in a Russian court, which is presumably where such an issue would be adjudicated. As for any actions of Zenit fans that might happen, I suppose UEFA could levy a fine, demand they play European games behind closed doors, even take away Zenit's ability to host home legs or ban the club entirely from Europe, but I gotta think that probably ends up in a Russian court, too. If I'm UEFA, I don't want to face a Russian judge/jury. I'd be peeing into the wind from the get-go. Plus, I'm not going to be able to out-spend Gazprom when it comes to legal fees. Maybe our resident attorney, Martin, can tell me if I'm off base. |
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