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Champions League
Topic Started: Aug 13 2007, 02:00 PM (4,090 Views)
valenciano
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Simon,Dec 5 2007
05:30 AM
One area to note is that Shakhtar's collapse (winning their first two games, losing their next four) means that they go out along with Slavia Prague, Steaua Bucharest, Dynamo Kiev and CSKA Moscow, so that all eastern European involvement is at an end. In fact only one of those teams will even advance to the UEFA Cup, and even that is only because Slavia and Steaua were placed in the same group. If their mauling at Arsenal is anything to go by, it's easy to imagine they would have finished bottom of most other groups. A lot of money has been spent at some of these sides in recent years, and Shakhtar and CSKA have several big money, big name foreign stars. I wonder why they are still not competitive? Maybe their domestic leagues are too weak to allow them to get the constant big game workouts that most of their CL rivals enjoy?

This is a good question asked here, I know the strength of league was always brought up to explain why Rangers and Celtic usually failed to get out of their groups in the Champions League but in the past few years those teams have enjoyed greater success and you no longer hear that reasoning brought up. Simon could be correct about the teams from the east of Europe although as recently as 3 years ago CSKA Moscow won the UEFA Cup but other than that I can't recall a eastern European team havng much effect in European competitions since Dynamo Kiev had Shevchenko and Rebrov around the turn of the century.

I wonder if the weather also effects them? In November and December when decisive games in the groups are being played, the eastern European teams are playing in freezing temperatures and while that effects both teams, the visitors are only playing one game in such weather while the home team is playing multiple games and no matter how much you can acclimate yourself to the cold weather, the fact is it makes it difficult to play and thus their form dips in the 2nd part of group play.
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shelsoccer
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You also need to remember that the Russian league plays a spring-to-fall schedule. (Not sure about Poland and Ukraine, but I think the same applies.)

When the CL is starting, the Russian season is winding down, players are injured, nicked up and may be concentrating more on the league race. If a Russian team makes it the knock-out stage after the New Year, they're coming off their break and aren't match fit.

Obviously (see CSKA in the UEFA Cup), these factors can be overcome, but it isn't easy.

I think it's also fair to say that the Eastern European clubs don't have the resources to support a deep, quality roster that can handle the rigors of domestic and European competition. That's starting to change in Russia, and to a lesser degree Ukraine, but their depth isn't comparable to Western European clubs.

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Manzanares
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shelsoccer took the words right out of my mouth, or fingertips since I'm typing this! Russian clubs also are playing these final few Champions League group games after their season has already been completed so while they can play a few friendlies here and there they aren't going to be as match sharp as their opponents who are still playing league games.
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Merengue
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Rosenborg in Norway have also completed their season and their lack of game sharpness may come into effect next week when they play their decisive match against Schalke to try and win a spot in the 2nd round. I think it is a valid point that these teams from Europe's colder climes have a disadvantage at the end of the group stage and if they qualify for the 2nd round, at the beginning of that phase, as they are out of match practice due to their league's schedule. I know many teams from Scandinavia and eastern Europe go to Spain during their winter break for preseason training but that isn't a complete substitute for playing competitive games.
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enganche
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These are this week's calendar of games in the final set of matches for 2007 in the Champions League and those which will determine the final 7 teams to qualify for the 2nd round:

Tuesday, 11 December

Marseille x Liverpool.
Porto x Besiktas.
Chelsea x Valencia.
Schalke x Rosenborg.
Real Madrid x Lazio.
Olympiacos x Werder Bremen.

Wednesday, 12 December

Rangers Glasgow x Lyon.
Barcelona x Stuttgart.
AS Roma x Manchester United.
Sporting Lisboa x Dynamo Kiev.
PSV Eindhoven x Internazionale.
Fenerbahce x CSKA Moscow.
Arsenal x Steaua Bucaresti.
Slavia x Sevilla.

5 spots are still in play with Tuesday's games. Both Real Madrid and Olimpiacos can qualify from their group with draws. Lazio and Werder Bremen can still make it too but both will need to win on the road. While that group ahs everything still to play for so does the group currently led by Porto. The Portuguese champions just need a draw at home to Besiktas to qualify. The Turkish team though must win to make it to next year's round of games. Liverpool must also win on the road at Marseille to classify and Marseille will also ensure they qualify with a victory over Liverpool or they could also advance with a tie if Besiktas does not win in Porto. Finally with Chelsea already classified the 2nd team from that group comes down to the Schalke-Rosenborg game. Schalke must win to qualify while a draw will suffice for Rosenborg.

On Wednesday Rangers just need to draw to move on to the elimination games next year, Fenerbahce can make it with either a win or a tie and hope PSV does not win their match while Lyon and PSV require victories.

Confusing enough? All these possibilities have worn me out. Just enjoy what should be a dramatic two days of games from Europe.
Prefiero morir de pie que vivir arrodillado
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Simon
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Nice summary, Enganche. I had to read certain bits a couple of times as these are complex permutations but it was neatly explained!

In Group A, it's hard to see Porto actually losing at home to Besiktas. I can still see them finishing runners-up in this group, depending on how well the Turks play. It may be tempting for Porto to settle for a draw whereas it's win or bust for Liverpool and I'm pretty certain that they'll win in Marseille which could be enough for them to win the group. I'm just glad that Liverpool are going to have to push themselves and go all-out just days before they have to play Manchester United!

In Group B, Valencia can still play for a place in the UEFA Cup, and they may get it as Chelsea have already won the group and have a massive game at Arsenal at the weekend, so it's likely they'll play a weakened side. As well as Rosenborg have done in this group, I think Schalke are likely to beat them in Germany, especially as the Norwegian season has finished, as others have said.

As for Group C, I'd favour Real Madrid at home to Lazio at the best of times, but Lazio have been an absolute disaster recently so barring a real upset I think Madrid will be fine. I'll be really interested to see what happens in Greece. Olympiakos have a real chance to go through and home advantage should help them.

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TCK
Liverpool FC till I die
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Well, I've heard that French officials have feared Liverpool fans will cause trouble. Anyways on to the game. I reckon Liverpool will pull off another miracle after looking down and out, yet, still qualifying for the knockout stages. The thing I hate is, it seems as though Rafa cares more about The Champions League which we've already won and us Liverpool fans want the Premiership more than ever and it looks like another year goes for a miss.
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Merengue
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What I like about today's sets of games are they are all, except for Chelsea vs Valencia, like an elimination game as the teams have it all to play for. Hopefully that will lead to some exciting games and dramatic finishes. I am not that concerned about Real Madrid's game today as I have confidence in the way the team are playing and the comfort they're at home. Marseille-Liverpool is the game which really intrigues me today. Marseille always is a cauldron to play at but it also is a team which can be maddeningly inconsistent. Liverpool certainly have a good chance to go there and get their needed result but either way this should be a fascinating game as Marseille will make you work for it. Like Simon wrote Olimpiacos at home to Werder Bremen is another interesting game. Bremen are on a good run lately until this weekend's slip up but that also could be attributed to looking forward to this game. Both teams are full of technically gifted players so that too should be a game worth watching. The hell with work today, it is time for football!
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TCK
Liverpool FC till I die
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Marseille 0-2 Liverpool at Half Time

We've dominated the most of a fantastic first half performance in front of a very hostile crowd. A Steven Gerrard penalty was saved, yet, Gerrard managed to score from the rebound. The second came after Fernando Torres skillfully played his way in to the penalty area and struck the ball in to the back of the net. Marseille have been very undisciplined so far with a lot of dirty play. (Typical French)
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Winslow
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TCK,Dec 11 2007
12:36 PM
Marseille have been very undisciplined so far with a lot of dirty play. (Typical French)

Typical rosbif. :D Full-time results...
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Group A: Marseille 0, Liverpool 4; Porto 2, Besiktas 0.
Group B: Chelsea 0, Valencia 0; Schalke 3, Rosenborg 1.
Group C: Olympiakos 3, Werder Bremen 1; Real Madrid 3, Lazio 1.

So the Reds complete the comeback with a Stade Velodrome stomping, as Kuyt and Babel added to the hurting in the second half. Porto still wins the group; Lucho Gonzalez scored just before halftime as the entire Turkish defense waved wrongly for offside, then Quaresma added another on a second-half breakaway.

Schalke made a comeback of its own to advance, though its comprehensive home win against a rusty Rosenborg is not much of a surprise. The Norwegians finish third as Valencia could do nothing in London.

I can't decide the bigger Group C surprise: Olympiakos finishing second or Lazio finishing last. The Greeks took care of Bremen pretty easily at home, scoring early and adding two more in the last 20 minutes, while Real took first place with first-half goals from Julio Baptista, Raul, and Robinho.
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Simon
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Yeah, it wasn't hard to predict an easy Liverpool win, although I thought even a French team might have shown a bit more backbone in front of their own fans.

Liverpool are definitely the strongest 2nd place finishers so far, and I can predict that they'll eliminate whoever they're drawn against in the 2nd round. Thankfully it can't be United! No surprises tonight really, as Porto, Real Madrid and Schalke record pretty comfortable home wins. I thought Bremen might have provided stiffer opposition in Greece but it wasn't to be, so just one German team survive the group stage. From the highlights I saw Chelsea at least made an effort to win their game and probably should have done as Cole hit the post and Kalou somehow missed an absolute open goal.

Most of tomorrow's matches look dead already, which is unfortunate, but at least there's still something riding on the games in Glasgow, Eindhoven and Istanbul.
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siralfred
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Forza Zlatan!
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Though PSV have something to play for, Inter obviously do not. According to the Inter website, Mancini is sending mostly reserves. Julio Cesar, Materazzi, Cambiasso, Crespo and Suazo are all going, but I wonder if they'll play much. Maicon, Burdisso, Jimenez, Cruz and Ibrahimovic will be at home preparing for Sunday's match at Cagliari - or maybe they won't need to suit up for that one either...

Can't get a line-up from ManU, just a few names: Pique, Simpson, Evans. Other than that Roma want to win at home, it's barely on the level of a friendly.

Rangers - Lyon should be a cracker as the French have improved their form since the first round and need a win at Ibrox. Kom igen Källström!!!
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Martin
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Not quite the drama many of us were expecting was it? Both Real Madrid and Liverpool put their games away in the opening 1/4 hour. It took longer for Olimpiacos to do that against Bremen but they too always looked in control. Two nice goals from Stoltidis (sp?) and one from Kovacevic. It has been a few years since Olimpiacos have made it to the 2nd round but they played well in this group stage and have a lot of good technicians on their team. I read that this was Schalke's first time ever qualifying for the 2nd round of the Champions League. Well at least they're keeping Germany's interest in the tournament alive. Chelsea may have played some reserves but with the way Valencia are playing the fact they couldn't score on Chelsea's subs is no surprise.

Rangers-Lyon is the game to watch tomorrow. Rangers have a good home record but Lyon have been playing pretty well recently and in Benzema and Ben Arfa they have two of the most exciting young players anywhere.

LOL, good one Winslow, I haven't heard rosbif used in years!
Club Sportivo Desamparados
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Manzanares
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Excellent game from Liverpool at Marseille. Torres was especially good but that is becoming the norm for him. He just seems to be playing much more at ease with Liverpool than he did with Atletico. As Simon wrote Liverpool will be a very tough opponent and no team will want to draw them in the next round. This is a team who play well in Cup competitions and their reputation for that is getting known now throughout Europe.
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gaviota
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As a Real Madrid fan I was glad they scored thsoe early goals to make the game all the easier. I am sure Liverpool fans felt the same about their team too. Julio Baptista has played well in these past few games where he has started and apart from scoring the opening goal he's been very active in midfield. His addition at the expense of Gago's makes Madrid a better team in my opinion. Lazio needed to win that match and by moving people forward that left them vulnerable to Madrid's attacks.

I thought Marseille looked very nevous against Liverpool and after the two early goals against them, Marseille never recovered. You could see in this game why they've struggled in the French league.
CHAMP13NS
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