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| Champions League | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 23 2007, 11:32 AM (2,289 Views) | |
| futbol4 | May 3 2007, 11:25 AM Post #166 |
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Merengue made the point, but Simon, would you being saying this if United had won? |
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Four hundred years ago, English-speaking illegal immigrants slipped into Jamestown, Va. When will America start getting serious about protecting its borders? - L Powers U S A! MEXICO! BARCA, BARCA, BARCA! MILAN! | |
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| Simon | May 3 2007, 01:20 PM Post #167 |
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Would I be saying how teams out of their title races are starting to dominate the CL had United won? Well yeah, from an English perspective and a United perspective that's now three years running that an English team have made the final despite finishing a country mile behind the champions (and behind us each time!). In 2005 Liverpool won the CL despite finishing 5th, fully 37 points behind the champions. Last season Arsenal made the CL final and finished 24 points behind Chelsea. This season Milan are 28 points behind Inter (for argument's sake you could call it 20 without the points penalty). Liverpool are 18 points behind United having played a game more. There was Monaco in 2004 as well, of course. Yeah Merengue, I kind of thought that if you're Portuguese and good enough to win the CL, it's kind of a given that you'll win the Portuguese title. Milan are on a good run right now, but that's not really what I mean. Any team can go on a decent run at the end of a season, but the difference is that they've only really played half a season. I guess what I'm saying in Milan's case is that I would expect them to have a proper tilt at winning Serie A next season, in which case they may come unstuck in the CL against the 3rd or 4th best English or Spanish team. We shall see. Of course it's not a cast iron law but I reckon it'll increasingly be the trend if you let 4 teams in from England, Italy and Spain and realistically only one or two from each country will contest the title race. The other 2 or 3 from each nation will then prioritise Europe and I think that extra freshness can give them an important advantage. |
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| Manzanares | May 3 2007, 07:53 PM Post #168 |
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I think this phenomena of teams out of their domestic title race but challenging for a European crown isn't new. Even when Real Madrid began the old Champions Cup with their 5 consecutive wins they weren't always doubling up by being the champions of Spain too. I also read something awhile ago that Nottingham Forest has more Champions Cup titles (2) than English League championships (1). They won the title one season which earned them passage to the then Champions Cup which they won two consecutive years, during neither of which saw them win the English league title. I'd be curious to hear from our South American posters about how recent Libertadores winners have done in their domestic leagues. I just think it is extremely difficult to be able to compete at such a high level on two or more fronts at the same time. For those teams who have succeeded at that then all the power to them but with the crowded calendars of continental and domestic championships it is difficult to do so but as I think I have shown this isn't a new occurrence, it has existed since these continental tournaments began. |
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| Martin | May 3 2007, 11:34 PM Post #169 |
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This is a great point Manzanares. I had not really thought of that and was thinking this was a newer phenoma with the expanded Champions League and the demands of playing practically twice a week for most of the season but you are correct, it has happened for years now that Champiosn Cup/League success doesn't always correlate to domestic league success in a single season. And in South America the same applies as none of the recent Libertadores champions that I recall also won their domestic championships in the season concurrent with the Libertadores competition. As commented, the demands on teams to play home and away elimination series at the same time they're coming down the final stretch of a league season are enormous and it takes a bit of luck with injuries and in a team's form for a club to achieve success in both their league and continental competition. As for Wednesday's Milan v Manchester United game, I'll agree with those who praised all of Milan's midfielders, and not just Gattuso, for their superb play. Milan's midfield pressed United extremely well defensively and when Milan had the ball they passed it with great style and kept United guessing all match long. They spread it out, then would attack down the middle; used short passes, then long passes; the variety was extensive and they left United chasing shadows for most of the match. |
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| Merengue | May 4 2007, 07:32 AM Post #170 |
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I also had not thought about the fact that even before the "Champions League" that back in the day of the Champions Cup the winners weren't always winning their domestic league titles the same season as winning their continenetal title. The difference now however is that 3rd and 4th place teams from the biggest leagues also get in and have the opportunity to win a European title. It's also interesting I think to read Martin's comments about the same thing occurring in South America. I believe that just goes to show you how difficult it is to play at a high level in two separate competitions. For those teams who are able to win a "double" or the very few like Manchester United and Porto who won a "triple" then you have to look at their accomplishment as extraordinary. |
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| Simon | May 4 2007, 07:41 AM Post #171 |
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True enough, but I think the big difference is that in the old days only league champions and holders made it into the European Cup. So almost everyone who won a European Cup had been domestic champions the previous year and possibly also won their title the same year as they won the European Cup (it didn't happen every year but was more common in previous times). These days you can win the CL without having even mounted a title challenge in recent times. Take Liverpool for example - the last time they won the league was 1990 and the last time they were even involved in the title race in was 1997, and even then they fell away in May and finished 4th. I think if you compare results over the last 5 years even with the five years prior to that, you will find that the CL is increasingly becoming the preserve of teams who finish about 3rd or 4th domestically, and often about 15-20 points or more behind the champions. I think it's logical as well - if you let as many as 4 teams in from the top countries it's inevitable that from about February onwards the 3rd and 4th best teams from those countries will exclusively be targeting the CL and resting players in league play. It makes them hard to stop. I'm pretty well resigned, unfortunately, to Liverpool winning the CL this season. That will be 2 Champions Leagues in 3 years for a team that rarely gets within 20 points of the Premiership champions and hasn't been the best team in England, or even in the top two teams in England, for nearly two decades. Something doesn't sit right with me about that, but it's increasingly becoming the case and it's a trend that I can see developing still further. |
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| TCK | May 14 2007, 08:37 AM Post #172 |
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Liverpool FC till I die
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Liverpool right now are great in European Competition yet, consistent in England. It was a complete different story in the 60's for us. |
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www.myspace.com/davideproductions LIVERPOOL FC! | |
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| Johnbuildr | May 15 2007, 02:19 PM Post #173 |
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The 60's? You remember the 60's? And I thought I was old! Oh, wait, I am. Anyway, I love 'Pool., but what have they done for us lately in the EPL? |
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Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum | |
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| rosarino | May 21 2007, 03:01 PM Post #174 |
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So Wednesday is the Final, it may be hard to live up to the final two years ago between these two teams but this game shouldn't be short of stories. I'm wondering if Maldini will be able to play this game and if he is able, should he as might he be a liability at his age? Nesta is in fantastic form now though and I think Maldini could do fine playing alongside him. Kaka I think is making a statement that he is currently the world's top player. A big game in this Final and it will be hard to dispute that. But Liverpool are a tricky opponent as they make it difficult for their opponent to get comfortable on the field. A lot of force and much pressure while Risse is replacing the aging Roberto Carlos as perhaps the hardest striker of a ball on the planet. I hope there is a first half goal from either team as that will open the game up and should make for better entertainment for those of us without attachments to either team. |
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| enganche | May 21 2007, 07:32 PM Post #175 |
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Nesta does look back to his best form and he and Maldini would make a good combo in the center of the defense but the team doesn't lose anything and in fact gains speed if Kaladze plays in place of Maldini. I think that and the question if Gilardino or Inzaghi start are Ancelotti's big questions heading into the final. For Liverpool it seems their unknown is whether Xabi Alonso sits or plays. For those who know more about Liverpool than I, is there a chance Alonso sits with Gerrard moving inside and Pennant playing wide right? Liverpool has to get physical and try and rush Milan's midfield. If they give them too much time Milan will pick them apart. I think it's safe to think lightining won't strike twice and Milan will give a lead away. Liverpool has to keep the score low in my opinion, I just don't see them scoring more than 2 goals on Milan. Let's hope we see an entertaining game on Wednesday. |
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| Manzanares | May 21 2007, 10:42 PM Post #176 |
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Benitez keeps proving he is a coach who excels in Cup competitions. Ok Liverpool may not always play "pretty football" but you have to admit they're effective. Liverpool will I think clog the back and kick Kaka around a bit while looking for a counter or a set piece for Riise to shoot on goal or cross it to Crouch. The longer the games drag on scoreless the more the pressure will build on Milan. I think Liverpool has the discipline and patience to pull this off. |
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| TCK | May 22 2007, 04:32 AM Post #177 |
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Liverpool FC till I die
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It'll be a tough match to call. I read in the newspaper that Fowler could well be a substitute. If he does score on the night, then that'll be one of the greatest ends to a career. Like the 1977 European Cup Final, Liverpool VS Borussia Monchengladbach. Tommy Smith in one of his last games for Liverpool scored with a header from a Steve Heighway corner to make it 2-1 to Liverpool. |
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| Pepe | May 22 2007, 07:44 AM Post #178 |
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I believe that rosarino is correct it will be difficult to live up to the final 2 years ago between the same teams but it doesn't have to be like that match to still be a good game. There's a contrast in styles and that often makes for a good matchup. Honestly I don't know how this game will turn out and that in itself should add to the attraction of the game. Since I don't have one team I like or dislike more than the other, I'll just wish that may the best team win. Is Fowler retiring after this game or just leaving Liverpool? |
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| TCK | May 22 2007, 08:07 AM Post #179 |
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Liverpool FC till I die
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Fowler is just leaving Liverpool I believe because there have been talks of a move to Celtic or Rangers just like John Barnes ended his career at Newcastle and Celtic after leaving Liverpool. |
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www.myspace.com/davideproductions LIVERPOOL FC! | |
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| valenciano | May 22 2007, 08:14 AM Post #180 |
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Well if Milan win it will make a good closure to the year for Pirlo, Gattuso and Nesta, a World Cup title and Champions League win. I too think the contrast in styles should make for a more interesting game. Everyone will keep bringing up 2 years ago and I suppose that is natural but I don't see this being such a high scoring game. And I do think this game gives Kaka another chance to show he is the world's top player now. I'll enjoy watching Gattuso, Ambrosini and Pirlo going at Gerrard, Mascherano and (possibly) Xabi Alonso, hard to find more combative midfields than these two. |
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