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2018 Olympic hockey
Topic Started: Feb 11 2018, 03:04 AM (664 Views)
global gypsy
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I very much appreciate the explanations regarding the relative strength of the intermediate level ice hockey nations. As someone who does not follow the sport, the explanation was very helpful.

OK, here is my question, Japan I assume has plenty of ice rinks/arenas and considering how well they are good at developing sport, for instance look how much Japan have improved in both football and rugby recently, does it surprise you that Japan are not better than they are in ice hockey? I'm not saying they should be at the level of Canada, USA, Russia or Sweden, but why not be the equal of Slovenia, Latvia, Slovakia or France?

I find Elizabeth Swaney's nation searching to be a bit much. If she was a legitimate contender, it would be more understandable. But we all know she is along just for the laugh and/or adventure of it. To me it cheapens the overall competition.
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ursus arctos
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I think that size is the essential factor holding Japan back.

They have addressed that in rugby to some extent by nationalizing players, but they don't have anything like the local talent pool to draw from that they do in rugby (the Japanese league pays some of the highest salaries in the sport, and the cultural demographics of rugby make it much more likely that decent Western players will find themselves in Japan for university or work than is the case with hockey). Rugby is also a high status sport in Japan, with strong representation in elite universities and serious government support (even before they successfully bid for the next Rugby World Cup).

Add to that the fact that the Japanese have traditionally focused on speed skating, ski jumping and figure skating as their preferred winter sports and their relative lack of success is perhaps less surprising.
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shelsoccer
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Branching out from hockey, I find it interesting that Australia seems to be developing some good snowboarders and freestylers but nothing else in the way of other winter sports. I've also wondered why Chile and Argentina haven't developed top-level alpine skiers when they have the facilities and climate.
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shelsoccer
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I should add New Zealand to Southern Hemisphere countries that really have no footprint in the Winter Olympics.
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hobbes
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Much like the 2002 World Cup I think I’m at the stage where I don’t know what day it is, when I should be sleeping and it all feels a bit like a fever dream.

Russia 5 Norway 1
Canada 1 Finland 0
Germany 4 Sweden 3

Canada-Finland was a pretty fun example of how simple hockey can be. In the first period, the Finnish defence put on a puck moving clinic, Canada couldn’t get in on the forecheck and did almost nothing. For the final two periods they were able to up their tempo and I think the toll of playing the extra game started getting to the Finns and Canada started to exert itself on the forecheck and started to control the game.

And for all of that, our work in the face-off circle probably decided the game. Eric O’Dell — the player who came the furthest off the radar to make the team — won a draw clean back to Max Noreau who powdered a shot post Koskinen. Noreau was a disaster in the first 30 minutes. He panicked every time he had the puck and didn’t make a pass almost the entire first period. Canada’s dominance in the circle was vital all game, but in the third they iced the puck with impunity. O’Dell won two draws in the final minute and Canada won another in the dying seconds to help kill the game off. I have never seen fussier linesmen when it comes to judging face-offs in my life. I have no idea what you have to do to be lined up correctly, but since getting kicked out of the face-off twice on the same face-off is a minor penalty, I’m scared it’s going to be a huge moment in some game.

I’m not sold on the Canadian defence at all, but Robinson and Lee have been great. I’ve liked Chay Gennoway too. The others (Karl Stollery has been not bad at times) need to move the puck much quicker and crisper. The team did make a bunch of great, small plays to ride out the win, maybe none better than Derek Roy’s desperation sweep check.

Kevin Poulin came into goal when Ben Scrivens got a Finn forward cross-checked into his head/shoulder at a high rate of speed. Under any circumstances Poulin was excellent and was incredible coming in cold. There was a local goalie named Scotty Munroe that was overlooked by the WHL, lightly recruited and ended up at Alabama-Huntsville in the NCAA and then became one of the top goalies in the AHL. He didn’t get a breakthrough in Philly, so signed with the Islanders who had the perpetually injured Rick DiPietro and not much else. Munroe thought he was going to be the back up in 09-10 and then the Isles signed Dwayne Roloson. Anyway, for some reason the Islanders had their training camp in Saskatoon that year, so I spent two days hanging out with Travis Hamonic, Clark Gillies and the Islanders goalies, which included a 19-year-old Kevin Poulin and a 20-year-old Mikko Koskinen. It was a little strange seeing them battle yesterday.

I thought Germany out-played Sweden after they fell behind in the preliminary round. So I expected a close game — especially since the Swedes were tough to score on and also struggled to score. But I did not expect 4-3. Two German goals in 29 seconds in the first stunned the Swedes. They finally put Rasmus Dahlin out on the ice in the third period and he set up an Anton Lander goal and then his next shift he coughed up the puck to Kahun for a breakaway goal to restore the 3-1 German lead. The Swedes forced overtime, but Patrick Reimer, a 35-year-old career German leaguer, scored 90 seconds in. He is the German league’s all-time leading goal scorer (with a team called the Metro Stars and now the Ice Tigers) and the first to hit 300. This is his first Olympics though. Also, bless the ref who didn’t signal goal or no goal or anything on the overtime-winner.

United States 3 Canada 2 (SO)

Going into the women’s final, I definitely like the Americans were playing better than Canada was. Szabados was a little off, our skaters were confusingly either shooting far too quickly and panicking or we were taking way too long to make a decision and not moving the puck quickly. They didn’t seem to be seeing the ice and thinking fast enough and when they got in good spots, they didn’t look composed. All that being said I thought we played really well last night. I can’t really fault the way the ladies played.

The U.S. opened the scoring on a nice Hilary Knight deflection on the power play. Canada took the first four penalties and I’m glad I wasn’t on social media because I am sure people were losing their minds (Canada famously took the first nine minors in the Salt Lake final, officiated by an American, who never worked another major tournament) (it did provide one of the Games highlights, Scott Moir, Canada’s figure skating sweetheart, beer in hand, standing in the crowd screaming “Are you kidding me? Wake up!” at the refs). I think there were some very obvious missed calls on the U.S., but every penalty Canada took was definitely a penalty. And they didn’t call Marie-Philip Poulin was absolutely destroying Brianna Decker in front with an elbow to the head. Szabados had just poke-checked the puck away from Decker who looked like she was going to score and Poulin was clearly trying to clear her out to prevent the goal. It was a body contact penalty every time and was a more blatant check to the head major than any of the one’s i’ve seen given on the men’s side.

Haley Irwin had tied the game and Poulin had scored on a great pass from Agosta to help further cement her legacy. Poulin tied the game late in Sochi and scored the OT winner. She also had the game winner in Vancouver, now has five goals in the last three gold medal games and looked like she was going to score three straight game-winners until we made a shocking line change and Jocelyne Lamoureaux-Davidson tied the game. Her twin sister Monique Lamoureux-Morando scored the last two goals in the shootout to win the game.

I thought Szabados was brilliant, but Maddie Rooney’s save on the two-on-one just before the equalizing goal was a really good stop. It wasn’t flashy, but that shot was going off the post and in, just over her pad on her blocker side, that’s a really tough save and she just got a piece of it to save the game.

I also thought we were out-coached. I know Poulin’s legend, but she played every second shift in overtime and was exhausted. It was absurd. Laura Fortino played 12:40 of OT. 12:40!!! That’s insane. Meanwhile Blayre Turnbull whose speed created the first goal for Irwin didn’t play in OT. Irwin got one shift. Laura Stacey didn’t play. Jill Saulnier, who is hurt, but is also maybe our fastest player and did play during regulation, didn’t play in OT. We played four D and six forwards all OT and were completely dominated by a team that already skates better and is deeper than we are.

The Lamoureux twins have always been the villains up here, but I know that if they played for us people would love them. They are fierce competitors and a friend of mine coached them in boys hockey in ND when they were young and he said they’ve always been like that. Their dad was a francophone goalie from Alberta who went to UND and never left. The four older boys all played, but their two youngest are definitely the most famous Lamoureux.

I have no idea on Japan, but having gone to Japan and South Korea in February, I did wonder why hockey wasn’t a little popular in South Korea. It was colder and it seemed like it would suit them. They love short track speed skating too.

I don’t even remember what hockey game I was waiting to watch, but just before it New Zealand gave South Korea a real good scare in the team pursuit speed skating. I have no idea how NZ has three speed skaters that good, but apparently they do. Australia seems strong in the “extreme” sports, which kind of makes sense as it’s not far removed from skate and surf culture.

Ursus> one thing Canada is doing a great job of is finding athletes and then trying to get them into a sports stream. Even at the local level, if you were 12 or 13 and decided you want to try biathlon, you would get access to a shooting range, there would be funding to help with skis and you would almost definitely make our regional team for the provincial winter games. They actively recruit kids for those niche sports ahead of the provincial winter games and then try to retain them heading into a Canada Games when they get older. At a much higher level, they recruit football players and sprinters and hold camps for our sliding sports. That, combined with the facilities that are a legacy of Calgary have completely changed our program. I know a guy who was a hockey player until he got cut from a bigger team at 16. Tried football for the first time, played football college in Canada (and he was primarily a fullback and had a relatively anonymous career) and is now at his second Olympics in four-man Bobsled. It’s crazy to me how his life changed by getting cut in Grade 11.

Each province also hosts a free RBC Training Ground event (sponsored by the bank) which puts 14-25 year olds through their paces and then they analyze their potential for Olympic sports and then they potentially get funding to train if their national sporting organization feels they have potential. They’ve been running ads for the program throughout the games. I don’t know if there are any high profile finds.

cheers,
hobbes
Saskatchewan for the CPL: multis e gentibus vires
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ursus arctos
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Typically brilliant report from our man hobbes.

I think that Australia's talent for the extreme sports derives from its long-standing surf culture (the same dynamic operated in North America to some extent). I was equally surprised to see the Kiwis get that far in the team pursuit.

Shel's question about the absence of Southern Cone skiiers is an interesting one. Chile has some excellent ski resorts that are regularly used as training sites by elite teams like Austria and Switzerland in the Northern Hemisphere summer. Chile even hosted the World Championships in the late 60s, but while I have vague memories of having seen one or two Southern Cone skiiers at major competitions, they certainly didn't make a lasting impact. I believe that skiing in these countries is still very much an upper class thing, which may be related to their lack of success.

Patrick Reimer has been playing in the DEL (Deutsche Eishockey Liga) for much of its history (it was only founded in 1994) and has seen the league change from one featuring smaller towns with a tradition of winter sport to one focused more on big city teams in large arenas (one of which is owned by the Anschutz Group). Even the teams he's played with evidence the transition. The "MetroStars" he played for were a relatively brief marketing name for one of Germany's most historic teams, Düsseldorfer Eislauf Gemeinschaft (generally called Düsseldorfer EG), which was founded in 1935. The club's fans never embraced the effort to "modernize" the name and the club used it less and less until was formally abandoned a few years ago. The "Thomas Sabo Ice Tigers Nürnberg" on the other hand, proudly incorporate their owner and sponsor's name into their own.
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enganche
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ursus arctos
Feb 22 2018, 08:16 AM

Shel's question about the absence of Southern Cone skiiers is an interesting one. Chile has some excellent ski resorts that are regularly used as training sites by elite teams like Austria and Switzerland in the Northern Hemisphere summer. Chile even hosted the World Championships in the late 60s, but while I have vague memories of having seen one or two Southern Cone skiiers at major competitions, they certainly didn't make a lasting impact. I believe that skiing in these countries is still very much an upper class thing, which may be related to their lack of success.

That has been my impression as well. Ski resorts in Argentina do have some cheaper package deals but for the most part it is an upper middle class to upper class activity and has not ever caught on in mass popularity. Compare that to tennis, another sport some may consider for the upper class but which does have more mass appeal in Argentina.
Prefiero morir de pie que vivir arrodillado
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shelsoccer
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In raising questions about why certain countries aren't better at winter sports, I think I've overlooked a pretty obvious one. What about Iceland? Have they just poured everything into football?
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ursus arctos
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Fewer than 350,000 people

Bakersfield is bigger.
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shelsoccer
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Didn't stop Iceland from qualifying for back-to-back major soccer tournaments. Given the preponderance of individual sports in the Winter Olympics, you'd figure they'd produce at least a few top-flight winter sport athletes.
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raconteur
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Maybe too many volcanoes? Keeps them from alpine skiing and not enough space for cross country? Hey if Liechtenstein can win medals in the Winter Olympics, I'm surprised Iceland haven't developed some decent winter Olympians too. At least one Nordic skier or speed skater.

So the men's semifinals are about to start Russia-Czech Republic and Canada-Germany. I'll read about them here tomorrow, these start times are a little too late for me.
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ursus arctos
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Cross country skiing would be the most likely as the country is not known for its ski resorts (they have some, but so does New Jersey).
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Sporting
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shelsoccer
Feb 22 2018, 08:19 PM
In raising questions about why certain countries aren't better at winter sports, I think I've overlooked a pretty obvious one. What about Iceland? Have they just poured everything into football?
Not enough snow is another reason.
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Johnbuildr
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Sporting
Feb 23 2018, 05:06 AM
shelsoccer
Feb 22 2018, 08:19 PM
In raising questions about why certain countries aren't better at winter sports, I think I've overlooked a pretty obvious one. What about Iceland? Have they just poured everything into football?
Not enough snow is another reason.
Are you sure about that Sporting? Iceland gets twice the number of snow days as Minnesota for example (60 vs 30 per year) and 4 or 5 times that of New York. I don't know, most reports seem to be that they get quite a bit of snow, but maybe you are right.
Edited by Johnbuildr, Feb 23 2018, 06:25 AM.
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum



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ursus arctos
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Wowza
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