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| 2018 Olympic hockey | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 11 2018, 03:04 AM (665 Views) | |
| Rufus T. Firefly | Feb 16 2018, 10:26 PM Post #16 |
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Is this our general Winter Olympics discussion too? Might as well be as I do not think there will be enough non hockey discussion to merit its own thread. If so, how about this: Czech Republic's Ester Ledecka surprisingly wins the Super G ski gold medal. I was watching and on US TV they had already given the gold to Austria's defending champion Anna Veith after declaring the remaining competitiors were no threat for the gold. Au contraire said Ledecka who surprisingly won in a race where US TV was busy salivating over Lindsey Vonn's probable gold (she finished 6th) Just like last night when they were doing the same over Mickaela Shiffrin in the slalom and she too finished out of the medals. OK back to hockey, looks like from now on the games really matter as teams fight for the quarterfinal (and some for automatic bye) spots. Russia-USA is tomorrow a.m. but I better get to sleep now if I want to watch that one! |
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| ursus arctos | Feb 17 2018, 04:11 AM Post #17 |
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Ledecka’s win may be the greatest upset in the history of alpine skiing. She is primarily a snowboarder, and had never previously finished in the top ten of any World Cup ski race. I was watching on German television, which showed her whole run, and she was literally speechless when she crossed the line, staring open-mouthed at the clock, which she believed had malfunctioned. The fact that she had won an Olympic gold medal only began to sink in when the Austrian who had been leading the race came over to congratulate her. |
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| hobbes | Feb 17 2018, 07:48 AM Post #18 |
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There have been so many fun moments for me so far in these games. One of my favourites was German ice dance pair Savchenko and Massot winning gold. It’s Savchenko’s fifth games and she’s won a handful of world titles and has a new partner and he blew a jump in the short program and they sat fourth. He was beside himself for letting her down. And then they absolutely killed the long program and won and their reaction realizing they won after all of the other skaters finished was really nice. So too was Canadian luger Alex Gough. She was expected to medal in Sochi and finished fourth. It’s her fifth Olympics and she was in decent shape, but when she crossed the line she looked like she had dropped from third to fourth and was near tears. But there were two sleds left. The last sled fell from first to fourth and Gough was on the podium. It was Canada’s first ever luge medal and it was kind of funny seeing the two German gold and silver medalists being fairly calm in the watching area and the entire Canadian luge program mobbed her. Sven Kramer (who was famously robbed of gold in 2010 in the 10k speed skating when his coach sent him into the wrong lane) was shockingly average in the 10k. Everyone expected him to just dominate as he always done and finally get his gold and he just didn’t have it. Instead Canadian Ted-Jan Bloeman (who is Dutch, but his dad is from Bathurst) won a surprising gold. Ted-Jan not only was unable to make the Dutch team, but he was struggling to find a consistent club situation. So he moved to Canada, settled in at the Olympic oval and broke the world record. I think Bloeman fully expected Kramer to beat him and halfway through his skate (which, obviously goes on for awhile) Ted-Jan started to realize that Kramer just didn’t have it and he went from looking kind of shocked to fighting back tears. It was a great reaction, especially since Kramer still had six minutes left to skate. In hockey Russia tops their group with a 4-0 win over the United States and Slovenia beat Slovakia 3-2 in a shootout. I thought the U.S. had a good second period, but then Kovalchuk scored with a second left to give the Russians a 3-0 lead on a goal that Zapolski can’t let in. I figured that was the game, but Kovalchuk scored on the first shift of the third period just to be sure. He is in great goal-scoring form. Andronov and Kalinin have been really good with Kovalchuk which wouldn’t have been something I expected, but they both work really hard and are physical they seem to compliment Kovalchuk well. And of course, Kovalchuk is a big man too and has a lot of NHL experience is more than fine playing a cycle game and not just doing his damage off the rush. I really like Prohorkin’s game. The former LA Kings pick scored twice and was a physical presence. The third line of Shirokov, Prohorkin and Mozyakin had a good night. I think Mozyakin is poised to show the form that made him the KHL’s top goal-scorer in recent years. It’s frightening to think that they haven’t gotten anything (or are asking anything) of Grigorenko and Shipachyov. The Russians are playing well and Koshechkin has found his game in the Russian goal, which is bad news for the opposition. He made some big stops tonight. Still, when they stop skating they look pretty average and their defence is nothing special. There was some pretty good intensity in this game and a good atmosphere in the stands. The Russian cheering section has been lively and I’m going to have Those Were The Days in my head all week if they keep scoring as they have. Three days before the 20th anniversary of the Czechs beating Canada in shootout in the Nagano semifinal, the Czechs beat Canada 3-2 in a shootout. I thought the Czechs played pretty well and I didn’t really have a problem with how Canada played. I’m not really convinced by Ben Scrivens in goal. Unfortunately we have South Korea left, so there’s no real chance to give someone else a proper look before the quarters. Assuming we beat South Korea we’ll be on seven points and will get a bye to the quarters as long as Sweden-Finland ends in regulation. Maybe an extra game would help us. Hard to say. The first time they played this format in 2010, Canada had to play an extra game (which I thought we needed, we didn’t settle on our lines until that win before the quarter-final) and won gold and two of the semifinalists played the extra game. In 2014, all of the teams that won earned a bye won their quarter-final game. I didn’t see the South Korea-Switzerland game, but apparently Matt Dalton stood on his head and kept his team in the game and then they gave him a mercy pull in the third and the roof caved in as the Swiss scored five third period goals in an 8-0 win. Pius Suter, the former 43-goal scorer in junior who won an OHL title, got a hat trick. He’s 21 and another young player who is making a name for himself. Jeglic scored the shootout winner for Slovenia after they couldn’t hang onto a 2-0 lead. A big win that gives Slovenia second place in Group B and drops Slovakia into fourth. If the Slovaks had won in regulation (and they had chances), they would have topped the group. Slovenia started Kroslj in goal after Gracnar gave up eight against the Russians. I think both have played pretty well. I was surprised they didn’t space Gracnar who was getting shelled in the late-going. I’m not sure if they just decided to rest Gracnar or if they’re going in a different direction. cheers, hobbes |
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| ursus arctos | Feb 17 2018, 10:26 AM Post #19 |
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I wonder if Dalton has played himself back into the AHL. He has been ridiculous in this tournament (and is sporting a 945 save percentage in the Asia League). |
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| hobbes | Feb 18 2018, 08:24 AM Post #20 |
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There were some good games today (whatever “today” means at this point in proceedings). Germany beat Norway 2-1 in a shootout, the Czechs used two empty net goals to beat the Swiss 4-1. Sweden tops Group C thanks to a late empty net goal and a 3-1 win over Finland and Canada earned a bye to the quarters with a 4-0 win over South Korea. Ironically the only game I didn’t watch was the Canada game. Canada back-up Kevin Poulin had to make 19 saves to earn the shutout and one of them was pretty solid. The shots were 49-19, but it was 2-0 heading into the third. A pretty respectable result for the hosts. The officiating has been fine for a few days, but today they reverted to form. Norway’s Kristiansson got a five-minute major that I didn’t think was a penalty and Norway spent a lot of time short-handed against a decent, but not terribly potent Germany. Norway had a glorious chance to win the game with a power play in overtime, but weren’t able to score and lost in the shootout. The Czechs looked great 5-on-5, but the Swiss got call after call and scored right as a power play was ending. That penalty came when Zohorna hit Thomas Rufenacht in the shoulder and the Swiss played snapped his head back with vigour. Rufenacht, naturally, got the goal. Later he drew a double-minor high sticking penalty and it’s conceivable he pulled the stick to his own face (or the Czech clipped him trying to jerk his stick away as Rufenacht held it). What I’m trying to say is that he is easily the most-annoying player in the tournament. Even the Swiss are embarrassed by him. When asked about his antics, the Swiss coach said “well he is half-American.” (Born in Switzerland, he grew up in the U.S. and went to Culver Military Academy before returning to Switzerland after high school). Some of the Swiss’ more skilled players didn’t see the ice in the third. Praplan either got benched or was hurt. Same with Cody Almond, who was IMO, playing pretty well. Denis Hollenstein just signed a contract making him the highest paid played in the Swiss league (a nice honour for a domestic player) and he’s playing well. Dominik Kubalik and Lukas Radil are both playing really well for the Czechs. Ursus mentioned Dalton, the Korean goalie, but I would think there are a lot of players that could earn a pro look from teams in North America if they wanted it. Perhaps oddly, at this point that is maybe least true for Canada and the U.S. where Canada’s best players have been really old and the U.S.’s best players have been college kids who are going to turn pro anyway. The Swedes gave up a goal, but it was only one. They have been great on the penalty kill, but their power play has been poor. Which surprises me. They benched the kid Dahlin again (who had played a lot of power play minutes in their previous game) and our commentators criticized that, but I think their power play struggles are a product of their general offensive struggles. Eeli Toivanen has been great for the Finns and absolutely buzzing, but he had a glorious look late to tie the game and missed the net. Sweden’s Linus Omark (famous for flashy shootout goals, one of which is basically a Panenka) threw himself face first to block a shot that led to an Oscar Moller empty-net goal. So we have our playoff match-ups and I think they’re pretty good. The biggest disappointment is that the U.S. will play Slovakia again, but the first game was pretty close, so I guess why not. Finland has been one of the better offensive teams and that shouldn’t bode well for South Korea (who I thought might get an offensively challenged team that would let them hang around, they still might). I think Switzerland-Germany should be a dandy and I think Norway has a a chance at putting a scare into Slovenia. Either way with USA-SLO and SUI-GER that’s four good teams who should play with a lot of intensity. Ironically finishing second helps Canada as they now potentially avoid Russia in the semifinals. Of course they also will get to play Finland in the quarters, so maybe they would have been in better shape if they won that shootout. The Russians will likely get a crack at avenging their loss to Slovenia in the QF, the Czechs will get USA/SLO which will be tough and I think Sweden will have a tough time with either the Swiss or Germans. It should be very low scoring either way. Apparently we have our first Russian failed drug test and it’s in mixed curling! It’s even funnier to me because mixed is basically beer league curling. Anna Sidorova’s team from Sochi (one of the better women’s teams in the world) aren’t in PyeongChang because of the fallout from doping and they still get a positive? Assuming Alexander Krushelnitskiy (not to be confused with Alex Krushelnyski, son of NHLer Mike) did test positive, that would cost them their bronze medal and give Norway another medal. Krushelnitskiy's mixed doubles partner is his wife Anastasia Bryzgalova. It's got to be awkward to cause your spouse to lose a medal because you failed a drug test. cheers, hobbes |
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| hobbes | Feb 20 2018, 07:46 AM Post #21 |
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Qualification playoffs United States 5 Slovakia 1 Norway 2 Slovenia 1 (OT) Finland 5 South Korea 2 Germany 2 Switzerland 1 (OT) It was an eventful day in Olympic hockey. The Americans put together a pretty decent performance, though it was greatly aided by their power play. I thought Slovakia started off as the better team, but the Slovaks took a goaltender interference penalty and on that delayed penalty Michal Cajkovsky took a checking-to-the-head major. The U.S. scored on the two-man advantage and the Slovaks weren’t the same without their best defenceman. The U.S. built a 3-0 lead and controlled the third period well after the Slovaks scored, but couldn’t get any closer. Slovenia got a blow before the match when one of their top-six forwards Jiga Zeglic failed a drug test for an asthma medication. I guess you can submit to have things like that cleared and he didn’t, so that’s kind of on him. Slovenia did grab an early lead on a Jan Urbas power play blast, but I liked how Norway was playing and managing to hang around. They got an equalizing goal from Kristiansen (who was wrongly ejected in their previous game) somewhat out of the blue and Slovenia had numerous opportunities to win the game. They earned a power play with 3:30 left and then right at the end of regulation they got another power play, but failed to score on a 4-on-3 in overtime. Slovenia got power play chances, but a blown offside call may have cost them the game as Jan Mursak was flying in clean on goal and they called his linemate for an offside that was clearly not offside. Patrick Thoresen made a great rush, sidestepped a wild attempted hit by Sabolic and got to the front of the net and nearly scored. After that Kroselj, the goalie was down without a stick, two players were knocked down in front and a Slovene defenceman gloved the puck out of the crease and straight to Alexander Bonsaksen who had time to survey the carnage and pick his spot through all of the bodies and give Norway their first Olympic hockey win in a non-consolation game. Bonsaksen is the all-time penalty minute leader in the Norwegian league. The Swiss and Germans didn’t waste any time setting a tone as Cody Almond tried to hit German veteran Christian Ehrhoff. Ehrhoff ducked and got Almond’s elbow in the chin. I felt bad for Almond who isn’t that kind of played and had his arms down, but he got ejected eight seconds into the game. The Germans scored on the power play, but only got one and took a minor penalty to kill off the rest of the major. They were given four straight penalties in the first period to give the Swiss most of the momentum. It didn’t help that Ehrhoff missed the rest of the first period while they looked at his head and another German defenceman, Frank Hordler, took a puck in the mouth and missed part of the first period. The Swiss tied the game through Moser after some really good work by Ambuhl and Suter who were the best Swiss forwards again. It was the most physical game of the tournament to date I think and it ended 26 seconds into overtime when converted forward Yannick Seidenberg went to the net from his defence position and showed he still has great hands, burying a rebound. Ehrhoff was great after coming back from injury. I found out today that Christian Ehrhoff is still being paid by Buffalo. He signed a 10 year, $40M deal with Buffalo in 2011. These deals had become pretty common, but they spread the cap hit out over 10 years, but Ehrhoff made $18M in the first two years. But Buffalo bought him out. So he’s been making $800k a year from Buffalo (while still counting as a $4M cap hit) and is on his third post-Buffalo team. Nice work if you can get it. I am hoping to see more of the South Korea-Finland game, but I never expected it to be interesting or close. The Finns took a 3-0 lead (Tolvanen’s pass on the first goal was tremendous), but then the Koreans scored twice in 2:03 in the second period and cut the lead to 3-2 and the place went mental after Jin Hui Ahn’s goal. Tolvanen had three assists for Finland and continues to shine. After the game the players skater around the ice with flags to salute the fans and then all bowed and saluted coach Jim Paek who was in tears. Hopefully it helps grow the game in South Korea. The U.S. plays the Czechs tonight (directly opposite the Colorado-TFC Champions League game) and I think the U.S. has a real shot. The Czechs have been really impressive five-on-five, but they gave up two power play goals to Canada. The U.S. power play has been really excellent. If the U.S. can get a power play goal or two they should have a really good shot at winning. Still, I think I give the Czechs a big advantage in goal and that could be a big factor. The Russians face Norway in a game I will likely sleep through and then we get a good Canada-Finland and a likely very tight Sweden-Germany bright and early. cheers, hobbes |
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| global gypsy | Feb 20 2018, 02:41 PM Post #22 |
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I know next to nothing about ice hockey but do not recall seeing Norway being one of the leading nations in the sport before. Making the last 8 of the Olympics would I think qualify for being among the leading, or at a very least, an intermediate, nation in the sport. Further question for those in the know, how are Denmark, Ukraine, Poland and the Baltic nations in the sport? |
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| hobbes | Feb 20 2018, 06:38 PM Post #23 |
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I think Norway are an intermediate nation in the sport. It's notable that Slovenia has seven rinks in their whole country and Norway beating them was a definite upset. The Swiss are on the rise and the Slovaks are in a little rough era (IMO). They're both behind the big six and slightly ahead of the Germans. After that it's pretty wide open. This Olympics, without the top players, is a bit of an equalizer. I actually think Denmark is as good, if not better than, the Germans with all of their best players. They have 10 NHL players currently and a goalie who starts in the NHL. I think they would give a lot of nations a good game. They've really progressed well with high-end players and are producing much better players than Norway. Poland has some history in the sport and has produced a few pretty good players, but generally haven't had a truly competitive team in decades. The two nations that perplex me is France and Italy. They have been competitive at various times and qualified for the Olympics and world championships, but are behind the likes of Denmark and Slovenia now and I don't really understand why that is. I know it's down the pecking order in terms of popularity, but there is a much larger population to build through. Ukraine has not been very good at any point and even in the Soviet era they did not produce many (any?) players for the national team. Alexei Zhitnik (who played for Russia) is the only one that comes to mind. Latvia, Belarus (Olympic quarter-finalist in 02) and even Kazahkstan (Olympic quarter-finalist in 98) have had much more success in the post-USSR era. Darius Kasparitis (who like Zhitnik was a very good NHL defenceman who played for Russia) is the only Lithuanian player I think I've ever heard of. Latvia is a semi-regular participant at the world championship (and their supporters are always the life of the party, they're the Scotland of world hockey), but Estonia and Lithuania are nowhere near qualifying for a worlds at this point. Does anyone have an opinion on "Hungarian" freestyle "skier" Elizabeth Swaney? cheers, hobbes Edited by hobbes, Feb 20 2018, 06:42 PM.
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| ursus arctos | Feb 20 2018, 08:04 PM Post #24 |
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I’m conflicted about Swaney On the one hand,, one can see it as a bit of performance art lampooning the ridiculous qualifying system. She isn’t taking anyone’s place away (which is important to me). On the other hand, there is so much money and privilege inherent in her being there that I am troubled. I also wonder if she is interacting with her “teammates” at all. There’s also the fact that she rowed for Cal and would seem to have more innate athletic talent than she’s currently exhibiting. |
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| ursus arctos | Feb 20 2018, 08:24 PM Post #25 |
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I agree with your survey of the intermediate hockey nations. There’s an argument that Denmark were actually the most disadvantaged by the NHL boycott, as all of their best players play here, while their talent pool is relatively shallow, and they simply don’t have the strength in depth playing elsewhere that other countries do. Ice hockey is a very marginal sport in Italy. They had to field a team in Torino as hosts, but that was full of a North American ringers of Italian heritage. Although there is an established league, its clubs are all in the Dolomites (with several in towns of 10,000 or so), with the exception of a Milan club that episodically goes bust (and was once a joint venture between the owners of Milan and Inter). France is more perplexing, as the league is genuinely national in reach. I do think that their historical reliance on Quebecois professionals has hurt them in the long run. Germany has definitely benefited from having the economically strongest league outside the former Warsaw Pact, the Nordics and Switzerland. As in the very early years of the NHL in the US, the owners of large arenas have been willing to invest in the sport in order to fill their buildings 40 or so nights a year. As to the Baltics, Latvia have been the traditional regional power, but didn’t qualify this time. Lithuania is very much a basketball country, and Estonia have never been good at either sport. Slovenia’s emergence is entirely down to the Kopitar family, as Anze is to Slovene ice hockey what Jari Litmanen was to Finnish football, with the added details that his dad was the longtime national coach and the country’s strongest clubs are from his hometown near the Austrian border. In a country of only two million, we may well not see them at this level again once he is gone for good. |
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| shelsoccer | Feb 20 2018, 08:29 PM Post #26 |
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Which raises the question of Austria. |
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| ursus arctos | Feb 20 2018, 08:36 PM Post #27 |
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Should be better (the best Slovene and Hungarian clubs play in a primarily Austrian league), but the national obsession with Alpine Skiing creates a real challenge for other sports to develop. |
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| Yogi | Feb 20 2018, 08:50 PM Post #28 |
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An article on Elizabeth Swaney. She is quite the character from reading this and is willing to try just about anything. As ursus noted, the good thing is she is not taking another athlete's spot but she does sort of make a mockery of the sport. And what exactly is her connection with Hungary? Is it she once ate goulash? |
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| hobbes | Feb 20 2018, 10:56 PM Post #29 |
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Pretty entertaining game between the U.S. and the Czechs, with the Czechs prevailing 3-2 in a shootout on a slick goal by Petr Koukal. The U.S. scored first and started the game fairly well, but the Czechs tied it after some disastrous d-zone face-off coverage and then at the buzzer at the end of the first period John McCathy took a stupid penalty to give the Czechs a power play. Teams almost never score on power plays coming out of an intermission, but that power play started a sequence of about nine minutes where the U.S. could barely get out of their zone. McCarthy had a 2:30 shift and never saw the ice again. The Czechs took a 2-1 lead and drew two more power plays as they cycled the U.S. to death. And just when it looked like the U.S. had nothing left in the tank, Jim Slater (who only plays on the penalty kill) scored a short-handed goal to tie the game at 2-2. The U.S. had five power plays including one to end regulation, but they couldn’t score. Brian O’Neill (yet another former LA Kings prospect in this tournament, he was a key piece of their AHL title under MIke Stothers in 2015) hit the crossbar late. It was O’Neill that sprung Slater for his goal. I thought the U.S. did a good job of clogging lanes, blocking shots and protecting home plate, but if they got hemmed in, they couldn’t win enough battles along the wall and spent too much of the game unable to get good zone exits and get their transition game going and use their superior speed. Francouz was sharp in the shootout, I think Donato had him beat, but couldn’t finish and even Terry couldn’t score. I’m going to disagree with you on a couple of points Ursus. I think the Italians have been more consistently on the world’s stage and I do think the French have been able to produce some quality players and traditionally their best players have been produced at home. I agree they use too many Quebecois players and the Italians also lean too heavily on non-native Italians, but they have been mainstays on the international scene for years. They did have a very Canadian-heavy team at the 1982 worlds when they famously tied one of the best Canadian worlds teams ever (I think there were six hall of famers in that lineup including Gretzky at the absolute peak of his greatness), but Italy was in the 84, 92, 94 and 98 Olympics. They also qualified for every worlds from 92-02. Some of that was down to the worlds expanding, but in 94 they finished ninth at the Olympics, one back of the U.S. (in looking up those teams and their rosters I realized Bruno Campese played for Italy in 1994. Not only was Bruno the goalie on possibly the worst junior team I have ever seen, the early 80s Kelowna Wings, but he also has been an HC/GM for years in the WHL. He’s scouting for Vegas now. I’ll have to ask him about Italian hockey and the Olympics if he’s in the building this year). They lost 5-1 to the Soviets in 84. That’s really respectable. Their 98 roster was a majority of locally-developed players AFAIK. I’m just surprised they haven’t been able to stay in that range of being the 12th best team in the world, even with a home Olympics to maybe give them a little bump. While Italy hasn’t produced any individuals of note, France certainly has. I think in a different era Phillippe Bozon (a small, but talented offensive defenceman) would have had a longer NHL career. Pierre-Édouard Bellemare has been a strong NHL player since breaking through late in his career. Antoine Roussel has been very good in Dallas. Christobel Huet had spells of greatness in a mediocre NHL career. Stéphane Da Costa didn’t last in the NHL, but has been good with Dynamo Moscow. France qualified in 88, 94, 98 and 02, but haven’t been back since. They did finish ninth at the worlds last year as a co-host. I definitely agree about Slovenia though. They have nine players on their roster from Jesenice which has 13,000 people. That’s definitely the Kopitar effect. It will be hard for them to top this golden age. I don’t know what to think about Austria. They went to four out of five Olympics in the 80s and 90s and have fallen off. But I think with the end of the USSR and the split of Czechoslovakia, they’re just not quite good enough to qualify for much of anything when before they could just barely qualify for everything. I suspect not much has really changed beyond the landscape. Yogi> she has Hungarian grandparents apparently. She was going to ski for Venezuela initially. I don’t even know why freestyle skiing exists. It takes everything from snowboard halfpipe and then subtracts speed, air on the jumps and almost any wow factor. I watched Canada’s gold medal winning run and was totally underwhelmed. I don’t know whether to admire her moxie or shake my head at her entitlement. I thought Ursus said it pretty well. I do wonder how she isn’t at least a little better at the sport at this point. She’s been going to World Cup events for two years. You’d think she could get out of the pipe. cheers, hobbes |
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| ursus arctos | Feb 21 2018, 05:21 AM Post #30 |
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Thanks, hobbes I actually don't think that we disagree that much. Instead, I would say that we have somewhat different perspectives on the question. I'm focusing more on the current situation among the top 8, whereas you are taking a much longer term and more comprehensive view of the top 12-16. I do find it interesting to examine how sports rise and decline in popularity within a particular over time, and what factors can be seen to contribute to those changes. Looking at Italy, for instance, it used to be a genuine power in bobsledding, taking advantage of its tradition of automotive engineering and the fact that in Cortina and St Moritz (just over the border in Switzerland), they had easy access to tracks, which were not well developed elsewhere. From 1956 to 1968, sleds driven by Eugenio Monti won six Olympic medals (two of each color). That tradition has almost completely disappeared. Italy has only one four-man sled at these games, which is not expected to be competitive (that team ranks 19th in the current World Cup). The challenge that I see for ice hockey expanding its footprint is the need for specialized facilities (outside of places where outdoor play is possible for long periods) and the cost of the equipment (particularly composite sticks)). The comparable barriers to entry in team sports like basketball, (team) handball, and even rugby are much lower. Meanwhile, Germany are leading the Swedes 2-0 after one period . . . Edited by ursus arctos, Feb 21 2018, 05:51 AM.
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