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The numeral declension 2-4
Topic Started: Jul 1 2016, 12:10 AM (488 Views)
bandziol20
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Hey, I've looked on the site : http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/numerals.html
And I've found table with numeral declension 2-4 that is rather bizarre.
It contains various forms in cases with a little sense. It goes like this :
234

Nom.-
Acc.
dva (m.-n.),
dvě (f.)
tričetyri

Gen
dvu (dvoh)trěh četyrěh

Dat
dvěma (dvom) trěmčetyrěm

Ins
dvěma (dvoma) trěmačetyrmi

Loc
dvu (dvoh) trěhčetyrěh

I wonder why :
Gen. dvu (dvoh) ?
Dat. dvěma (dvom) ?
Ins. dvěma (dvoma) and trěma but četyrmi ?
Besides, what about animacy ? does it involve numerals 2-4 at all ?
---
Everything looks so involuntarily random, that seems to me some kind of "the voting generator" has been involved.
---
:P

Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
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Russian doesn't distinguish animacy, so it would be too complicated to use that system. Russian numerals go одного/одному/одним then двух/двум/двумя, трёх/трём/тремя, черырёх/четырём/четырмя

What are forms in other languages?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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bandziol20
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Quote:
 
Russian doesn't distinguish animacy, so it would be too complicated to use that system.
So how they say in Russian :
I see two / three / four men
I see two / three / four girls
I see two / three / four dogs
?
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
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Я вижу трёх мужчин
Я вижу трёх женщин
Я вижу трёх собак
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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bandziol20
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So you see : трёх is a Gen. plur. form in Acc. plur. Doesn't mean there's some animacy in Russian yet ?
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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bandziol20
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iopq
Jul 28 2016, 07:55 AM
What are forms in other languages?
In UpperSorbian there's no animacy, but there is personality instead :
234

masculinefeminine + neuter
Nom.dwajdwětři / třo*štyri / štyrjo*
Gen.dwejutřochštyrjoch
Dativedwěmajtřomštyrjom
Acc.dwaj / dweju*dwětři / třoch*štyri / štyrjoch*
Instr.(z) dwěmaj(z) třomi(ze) štyrjomi
Loc.(wo) dwěmaj(wo) třoch(wo) štyrjoch

* -- refers to male persons
The same way as dwaj / dwě for 'two' declines wobaj (m.) / wobě (f. + n.) for 'both'. :)
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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bandziol20
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In Slovak :
234
masculinefeminine + neuter
Nom.dvaja* / dva dvetraja* / trištyria* / štyri
Gen.dvochtrochštyroch
Dat.dvomtromštyrom
Acc.dvoch* / dvadvetroch* / trištyroch* / štyri
Instr.(s) dvoma(s) troma / tromi (so) štyrmi
Loc.(o) dvoch(o) troch(o) štyroch

* -- refers to male persons
The same way as dvaja / dva / dve for 'two' declines obidvaja / obidva / obidve ( or obaja / oba / obe) for 'both'. :)

In Polish :
234
masculine + neuter feminine
Nom.dwaj* / dwa dwietrzej* / trzyczterej* / cztery
Gen.dwu / dwóchtrzechczterech
Dat.dwu / dwómtrzemczterem
Acc.dwu* / dwóch* / dwadwietrzech* / trzyczterech* / cztery
Instr.(z) dwoma(z) dwiema(z) trzema(z) czterema
Loc.(o) dwu / dwóch (o) trzech(o) czterech

* -- refers to male persons
The same way as dwaj / dwa / dwie for 'two' declines obydwaj / obydwa / obydwie ( or obaj / oba / obie) for 'both' ( exception : forms obóch, obóm are not in use nowadays ) :)
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
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bandziol20
Aug 1 2016, 08:26 AM
So you see : трёх is a Gen. plur. form in Acc. plur. Doesn't mean there's some animacy in Russian yet ?
Oh, that's what you meant, yeah, using gen. pl. is still mandatory, I thought there might have been some special form in Polish
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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steeven
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I recall we spent a lot of time on the number system way back when.
That discussion / thread should still be in these ZetaBoards somewhere ....

(Češč - Pozdrav! Ako vse!) :D
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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bandziol20
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I suppose it could be about numerals but on a different issue.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
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steeven
Aug 3 2016, 07:50 PM
Češč
Česť
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Ranmaru Rei
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iopq
Jul 28 2016, 07:55 AM
Russian doesn't distinguish animacy, so it would be too complicated to use that system. Russian numerals go одного/одному/одним then двух/двум/двумя, трёх/трём/тремя, черырёх/четырём/четырмя

What are forms in other languages?
Err… Sorry, for necropost. I know it is stupid, but…
Russian DOES distinguish animacy, but in another way, than Polish for example. In Russian can be animate nouns of any gender.
sigularplural
муж (1st declension, masc.)мужамужей
дитя (athematic declension, neutral)дитядетей
жена (2nd declension, feminine)женужён
мышь (3rd declension, feminine)мышьмышей

Case ending -y(ų) for accusative singular in 2nd declension does not depends on animacy.
For masculine 1st declension animate:
acc sing. = gen. sing.
For the rest:
acc sing. = nom. sing.
But for any animate object:
acc. plur. = gen. plur.
So, я вижу: трёх мужей, трёх жен, трёх детей, but три стула (chair), три села (village), три ложки (spoon).
In general words for people and animals are animate, but their is some inconcistencies. Я вижу: but трёх кукол (doll), трёх мертвецов (dead man), but три микроба (microorganism)
But still, when it comes to numerals, it is legit: я вижу три жены, три мужа, три мыши. But only, when it is used with numerals, because focus point in this case are numerals, but not nouns.
Edited by Ranmaru Rei, Nov 6 2017, 02:00 PM.
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iopq
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I actually meant there is no special "personal" form like in Polish

animate/inanimate is I think the same in Polish and Russian
Edited by iopq, Jan 27 2018, 03:04 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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