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čo slušaš?
Topic Started: Apr 10 2013, 04:30 PM (2,394 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
kliment
May 17 2016, 12:48 PM
bandziol20
May 16 2016, 06:19 PM
It's actually držati... What would be your proposition instead of syllabic r ?
soft syllabic r - er (smert, pervy)
hard syllabic r - or (torg)

It's a bit Russian solution, but it's logical and fits well in Slovianski logic - ь ->e, ъ -> o
These are things that Slovianski used to have before 2010 or so.

Originally we had:
- TorT/TolT > TroT/TloT
- TъrT/TъlT > TorT/TolT
- TьrT/TьlT > TerT/TolT
- ę > ja

Later this was changed:
- TorT/TolT > TraT/TlaT
- TъrT/TъlT > TrT/TolT
- TьrT/TьlT > TŕT/TolT
- ę > e

There were two reasons for this change:
* The old set of sound changes put Slovianski much closer to Russian than to (especially) South Slavic, and it was indeed criticized for being "too Russian" sometimes.
* Because South Slavs wouldn't know when to use TerT or TorT, or e or ja, etc., it was decided to merge them.

Things like držati may look strange for non-Slavs, but that's only because people are unaware of syllabic liquids. Once you know that Krk is actuallky [kǝrk], pronouncing it is not a problem at all anymore.

As for vz-, thing is that Macedonian is the only language that consistently uses voz-. Bulgarian has văz-, Serbo-Croat has uz-, and all the remaining languages have vz-. Even in Russian, voz- exists only in loanwords from OCS, in native words it uses vz(o)-.

But it's not a big deal. I wouldn't mind changing all occurrences to voz- (except in the case of vzęti, obviously).
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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kliment

"IJzeren Jan"
 

Because South Slavs wouldn't know when to use TerT or TorT, or e or ja, etc., it was decided to merge them.

Ok, but how can East Slavs know when they should change theirs ja/a to e ?

sja becomes se but vsja (e.g vsja rodina ide do crkve - whole family goes to church) stays vsja in Slovianski, or am i wrong and fem. of ves is vse, same as neut. ?

From pragmatic point of view, the more "russified" version has more practical value, because many people know a bit Russian, maybe to little to speak or write properly, but enough to recognize basic phonological changes. When you choose more southern flavor, you make things easier only for Croatian and Slovenians - Serbs and Bulgarians are quite familiar with Russian because of the political and religious ties with Russia. And we should not forget that also Ukrainian, Belorussian and partially Slovak shares this phonological change (e->ja/a) with Russian, so that would be hardly some "russification" in disguise.

All this is probably a matter of personal taste though, but if you want to stick to your voting principle, the most common solution would be:

- TorT/TolT > TraT/TlaT
- TъrT/TъlT > TorT/TolT
- TьrT/TьlT > TerT/TolT
- ę > ja/a

"IJzeren Jan"
 

Once you know that Krk is actuallky [kǝrk], pronouncing it is not a problem at all anymore.

Krk is always pronounced [kr̩k] in natural languages :) , r is a true syllabic liquid which could be written as [kryk] - y is a very short vocal between i and y. If you put a rule that krk should be pronounced with additional vocal - which would be probably confusing for Czechs or Croatians, you introduce discrepancy between written and spoken form which is an odd choice if you want to simplify language.

Fortunately, there is a fixed list of words with syllabic liquids and all of them come from Proto-Slavic period, so they can be easily put in dictionary - no one have to know if in smrt was hard or soft liquid.



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bandziol20
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I would stick to ǝr, but let czech and croatian spell as they want :)
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
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May 19 2016, 09:43 AM
Ok, but how can East Slavs know when they should change theirs ja/a to e ?


That's true as well, although that one is less complicated than the other way round. It can be fit into rules, at least:
* ja remains ja when the ending is actually -a (in feminine words like in Rosij-a, in cases like kraj-a)
* ja remains ja in verbs on -jati
* ja becomes e in practically all other cases (including neuter nouns like ime, ščene, and in the 3rd person plural of verbs on -iti: govoret)

Quote:
 
From pragmatic point of view, the more "russified" version has more practical value, because many people know a bit Russian, maybe to little to speak or write properly, but enough to recognize basic phonological changes. When you choose more southern flavor, you make things easier only for Croatian and Slovenians - Serbs and Bulgarians are quite familiar with Russian because of the political and religious ties with Russia. And we should not forget that also Ukrainian, Belorussian and partially Slovak shares this phonological change (e->ja/a) with Russian, so that would be hardly some "russification" in disguise.

Sure, you're right about that. The issue was rather that sound changes were divided pretty unevenly.

Quote:
 
All this is probably a matter of personal taste though, but if you want to stick to your voting principle, the most common solution would be:

- TorT/TolT > TraT/TlaT
- TъrT/TъlT > TorT/TolT
- TьrT/TьlT > TerT/TolT
- ę > ja/a

It's not that simple. In the case of TorT/TolT, for example, TraT/TlaT wins by votes, but TroT/TloT was originally chosen because it also worked as a compromise between TraT and ToroT.

TъrT:
CZ/SK/SL/SH/MK: TrT (2,5 votes)
East Slavic: TorT (2 votes)
PL: TarT (1 vote)
BG: TărT (0,5 vote)

A problem related to this one is whether we merge TъrT with TrъT or not (in other words: krv or krov?).

ję-, -ę-:
East Slavic: ja (2 votes)
South Slavic: je-, -e- (2 votes)
PL: ję-/ją-, -ię-/-ią- (1 vote)
CZ/SK: a variety of possibilities, really (í, e, ě, a, ia, ie)

So there is no clear majority solution here. It is true, though, that there is a clear majority for softening the preceding consonant, so from that point of view it would make more sense to pronounce it like ě.

But then, that's why I think keeping ę is quite a helpful addition. For Poles, it's a reminder that the underlying consonant is a nasal, East Slavs can very easily remember that it is the same thing as their ja, South Slavs can simply ignore the ogonek. In fact, I think ę is a lot more useful than ě, which wouldn't really matter of anybody but Czechs and Croats.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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kliment

"IJZeren Jan"
 

ję-, -ę-:
East Slavic: ja (2 votes)
South Slavic: je-, -e- (2 votes)
PL: ję-/ją-, -ię-/-ią- (1 vote)
CZ/SK: a variety of possibilities, really (í, e, ě, a, ia, ie)

So there is no clear majority solution here. It is true, though, that there is a clear majority for softening the preceding consonant, so from that point of view it would make more sense to pronounce it like ě.


I wouldn't put Polish in the voting, because a language that preserves nasals can't be really used to determine denasalized vowels. So you have 2 votes for ja 2 votes for e and czecho-slovaks-sorbian league clearly tips the balance for the first solution. The problem with ę->e are the artficial forms such as goveret, proset which look more like infinitive or 3 sg (for East Slavs).

Writing ę won't catch up because you need a special keyboard layout and it's to difficult to learn a proper distribution of nasals without knowledge of Slavic etymology. The most people using now ę, ų in Interslavic are either Poles or have learnt Polish earlier, so for them it seems to be so easy to put those ogoneks. The similiar problem is with ě, only Czechs and Serbo-Croatian can use it without much effort, for Slovaks and Poles it's a quite doable but for East Slavs it's a black magic.

"IJZeren Jan"
 

TъrT:
CZ/SK/SL/SH/MK: TrT (2,5 votes)
East Slavic: TorT (2 votes)
PL: TarT (1 vote)
BG: TărT (0,5 vote)


IMHO you should split the voting. First to determine if syllabic liquids should be preserved (2.5 vs 3.5), an second (because vocalization of liquids wins) which vowel should be used. I am the fan of syllabic liquids myself, but when i saw in Bandziols course in one of the first lessons forms such as črveny, črny, i began to wonder what beginners could think about the language that permits this kind of consonant monstrosities :)
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bandziol20
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Quote:
 
when i saw in Bandziols course in one of the first lessons forms such as črveny, črny,
Hey, if it's all about I could change that more in Slovak manner.
---
Of course, voting is a total bullshit. By splitting it as you like you come to results as you like and afterwards persuade to present as being "objective" to the public. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
kliment
May 20 2016, 09:48 AM
I wouldn't put Polish in the voting, because a language that preserves nasals can't be really used to determine denasalized vowels. So you have 2 votes for ja 2 votes for e and czecho-slovaks-sorbian league clearly tips the balance for the first solution.
The problem with Polish is rather that it completely mixes up ę and ą. But the Polish vote is absolutely relevant, for example the fact that the consonant before Polish reflex of PSl. ę is always soft (with the exception of sz, ż etc., which were hardened later).

Whether Czecho-Slovak really tips the balance is questionable. Whatever happens to PSl. ę is conditioned by different factors (vowel length, preceding consonant, following consonant). Like in the case of Polish, the preceding consonant is always soft, except after labials, which cannot be softened. But if anything, I'd rather treat the CZ/SK vote as a vote for je than for ja.

Quote:
 
The problem with ę->e are the artficial forms such as goveret, proset which look more like infinitive or 3 sg (for East Slavs).
True that. Although mind that SH has govore, prose.

Quote:
 
Writing ę won't catch up because you need a special keyboard layout and it's to difficult to learn a proper distribution of nasals without knowledge of Slavic etymology.
Yes. But mind, if you cannot or don't want to write ę, it is always possible to write ja instead of e.

Quote:
 
The similiar problem is with ě, only Czechs and Serbo-Croatian can use it without much effort, for Slovaks and Poles it's a quite doable but for East Slavs it's a black magic.
Not at all. The trick is quite simple: whenever Serbian has e and Croatian has (i)je, Interslavic has ě. Same thing when Ukrainian has і and Russian has е.

This is actually the nice thing about ě, ę etc.: if you know them in Interslavic, you can predict almost with certainty what the same word looks like in any other Slavic language.

Quote:
 
IMHO you should split the voting. First to determine if syllabic liquids should be preserved (2.5 vs 3.5), an second (because vocalization of liquids wins) which vowel should be used.
Even then, the Bulgarian solution TărT is pretty much a syllabic liquid as well. Also, mind that Polish has syllabic liquids as well (except that they aren't really syllabic) in cases like krtań, grzmot, trwać, lśnić, płci, jabłko. So the Polish vote is not of much help here. I don't think mertvy and torg are substantially more helpful to Poles than mrtvy and trg.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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"IJZeren Jan"
 

The problem with Polish is rather that it completely mixes up ę and ą. But the Polish vote is absolutely relevant, for example the fact that the consonant before Polish reflex of PSl. ę is always soft (with the exception of sz, ż etc., which were hardened later).

Ok , but you can't say that for Poles ę->e is better than ę-> ja, because preserving palatalization is more important than sound of vowel. Pet or se sound odd and moreover both are false friend, on another hand pjat i sja, especially in hearing, are clearly recognizable. You're right, the best solution would be pjet/pět i sje/sě, but then poor South Slavs again don't know when they should put a palatalization before e.

"IJZeren Jan"
 

But if anything, I'd rather treat the CZ/SK vote as a vote for je than for ja.


Why? In Slovak you've overwhelming majority for a/ä and in Czech ę > e is clearly minority.

"IJZren Jan"
 

Not at all. The trick is quite simple: whenever Serbian has e and Croatian has (i)je, Interslavic has ě. Same thing when Ukrainian has і and Russian has е.

But how many Russian know Ukrainian or Serbs know Croatian? But in another direction, yes, e.g Ukrainian can easily predict occurrences of ě because most of them are bilingual

"IJzeren Jan"
 

This is actually the nice thing about ě, ę etc.: if you know them in Interslavic, you can predict almost with certainty what the same word looks like in any other Slavic language.

Yes, but people at first tries to transform their native language to Interslavic and not a way around.

"IJzeren"
 

Also, mind that Polish has syllabic liquids as well (except that they aren't really syllabic) in cases like krtań, grzmot, trwać, lśnić, płci, jabłko.

They are merely consonant clusters , but i see your point. I wouldn't be so sure that mrtvy, trg are good for Poles, they look simply as a typo and probably would be pronounced as martwy, targ. Ordinary people have no clue not only about liquids but also about all those phonetics changes that we here discuss. They simply assume that another Slavic languages are as their native language only with "funny" pronunciation, full of strange words.

So if we have syllabic r in Slovianski perhaps would be better to have also syllabic l? It would be more consistent IMHO.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
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May 20 2016, 12:50 PM
So if we have syllabic r in Slovianski perhaps would be better to have also syllabic l? It would be more consistent IMHO.
Yes, and I have considered that as well. The problem is only that syllabic L is pretty uncommon in Slavic. Most languages that have syllabic R do not have syllabic L. Slovene and (IIRC) Macedonian have TolT in these cases, Serbo-Croat has TuT. Only Czech and Slovak allow syllabic L, and only in specific cases.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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bandziol20
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So the syllabic r remains ?
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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bandziol20
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Recently, I've discovered a separate world, a completely unknown to me piece of the Polish music, i.e. music of 30., 40. and 50.
What I'd like the most is that they've got very nice written, romantic or funny texts (often translated from American English or Italian in a surprising way) and a quite pleasant music (jazz ?). http://staremelodie.pl/
Nowadays they are performed for example by Warszawska Orkiestra Sentymentalna and their singer, Gabriela Mościcka with such a crystal voice, she has got that sort of culture in her singing as if she had been exactly brought up directly from that time.
Nikodem : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeohvGCM8wg
Tańcz, mój złoty : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj0Gw-j4_is
I heard also Mów (transl. Please) performed by her, it is a very slow-slow song, but I can't find it.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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Siciliano

Mnogo lěpo i interesno. My imajemo v Čehiji napriklad grupų Ondřej Havelka & Melody Makers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdlB-PuDk_0
I na Slovakiji Slovak Tango:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrNedssjUBs
Oni igrajųt našų muzikų iz 20. i 30. lět, hoť vsjaka iz nih v malo drugom stylu.
I tako mimohodom, imal byh malų prośbų. Mogl li by mi prošų někto, kto znaje slovenski język, prěpisati text pěsńe na slědujųćem linku s krĺtkim prěvodom ili na anglijski, ili někaki drugi slovjanski język (najlučše češski, slovacki ili poľski, no može byti takože hrvatski/sŕbski ili kaki-nebųď vňztočny)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAFe01fv4Rk
Velika hvala.
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bandziol20
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Interesting, it has recalled me some Polish songs. Like this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3jY3plomSU
or rather this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwKs5uH451Y
(singer's voice from 1:06)
for the refrain :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ6jaznzTrE
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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asank
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Ты, Россия, матушка Россия

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8heA9nHFrg
Osnovno najvažnjejšim jest žiťje. Ale kňgda uže jest žiťje, najvažnjejša je svoboda.
A potňm daje sę žiťje za svobodų.
I uže ne zna sę čto je najvažniejšim.

Marek Edelman
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DeepThought88
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Ruby Friedman - Never leave Harlan alive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiE_Bk8FOY0
Serbian-Slovak native, with decent knowledge of other Slavic languages, dead and alive.
I'm pretty fly for a Slav guy.

https://sites.google.com/site/deepthough88/ocs
https://www.facebook.com/ocslanguage/
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